NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!

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Message: <blockquote data-quote="jgsugden" data-source="post: 9101692" data-attributes="member: 2629">Please reread what I said.  I did not say that wanting predicatable results meant you inherently were trying to game the system.  I said stealth and surprise are areas where precision CAN be abused and busted - and that the ones that complain the most tend to be the ones that want to game the system.  I can say every orange is orange, but that doesn't mean everything orange is an orange. This is the oppostie of my fairly extensive experience.  When you have reliable and transparent rules for complex situations, you end up with a rules lawyer playground.  They do things like point to the clear rules that show they can 100% always sneak up so long as they combine these 8 elements.  In systems that went that direction, I allowed it as a DM - but it stopped being a good game with thrills and story as players tended towards looking for opportunities to show off the rules lawyer trickery, regardless of how nonsensical it was. D&D is a role playing game.  Part of what works in this style of game is some uncertainty.  It is why we have dice in the game - to add some chance and an inability to know for sure how things will play out.  It adds to the thrill and takes the story out of the hands of the DM - to an extent.  It provides the thrill that makes it an adventure rather than a scripted event.I'm confused now.  The 5E system is almost entirely up to the DM to determine how to resolve.  There is almost no structure to it.  When the game doesn't provide much structure - at all - why would it be counterintuitive?  If the goal is to let the DM figure out what makes sense - why would it be confusing?  And if the DM does a good job, why would it be unsatisfying?The guts of the surprise rules:Is your hubbub about them ignoring the passive perception side of things?  It doesn't make that much of a difference if you have the other side roll perception checks.  It is just a bit of a dead giveaway to players that something is stealthing around them.Beyond that, I'm at a loss as to what your concern is here.  If noboy is being stealthy, then there is no surprise.  If one or both sides are, then you roll and check versus passive perception and if your passive perception is not good enough to see any creature (stealthing or not), you're surprised. It just comes down to when the DM allows a stealth roll and when other combatants are far enough away as to not be noticed i there is no stealth roll from them.I do not see this as BG3 highlighting the stealth rules for the RPG ... I see it as (outside of some advancements in AI) the game not being able to just have the DM decide and needing to have more precise rules because computers require more precision.</blockquote>[/QUOTE]

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