Bane, Greater

[kreynolds]

Something I whipped up...

Bane, Greater
As bane, plus it bypasses the damage reduction of the designated creature and it deals an extra 4d6 points of damage (instead of 2d6) to the designated creature on a critical hit. In addition, against the weapon’s designated foe, a roll of 20 results in an automatic critical hit (if the creature is susceptible), thus a confirmation roll is not required. This last effect does not stack with any magical effects related to critical hits (such as flaming burst, keen, and vorpal). Such effects must be confirmed normally.
Strong conjuration; CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, summon monster VI; Price: +4 bonus.

What do you folks think?

 

[Mordane76]

Okay...


A Wiz7 can get 4d4+4 force damage from a magic missile.
A Rog8 can sneak attack for +4d6 damage.


A CL12 can create this effect on a sword, as a +4 enhancement equivalent (so ~16K IIRC, don't have the books), that only works against one particular type of creature...



The only sticking point I see is DR bypass effect. The DR bypass will be more effective against creatures that have odd DR types, or multiple DR types (like the more powerful demons); hence, this effect is of variable "worth" depending on which type of creature is selected.

Otherwise, I think you're in good terrtory with this power.

 

[Technik4]

But isn't Bane, Regular only a +1 enhancement now? So I could make a Dragon-bane, Red Dragon Bane Sword which would enhance the enhancement bonus by +2 and deal +4d6 extra damage against red dragons. Heck I could pick 2 more specific Dragon types to affect before I got +4.

Bypassing Damage Reduction is really nice though, probably worth at least +1.5. The confirming critical thing is another +.5, and the super-bane effect is +1.75. So it is fine at +4, Im just not sure many people would pay that much for the effect. A paladin could choose a Lawful Holy weapon which messes up all chaotic, all evil, and especially all chaotic evil foes or choose the same level of damage he gets against chaotic evil foes, with DR penetration but only against 1 type (the only upshot being regardless of alignment).

I think it would be better as a +3 enhancement as follows:

Automatically pierces chosen DR
+3d6 damage against chosen foe
Automatic critical on a '20'

Priced as above, the DR is still 1.5, the critical confirm is .5, and the slightly better bane effect is between 1.25 and 1.5. If you add for the fact that the auto-critical doesn't work against quite a few of the possible enemies and the fact that you will encounter your chosen foe at best 50% of the time, I think it would be alright. Now you compare this to Holy Flaming or Lawful Shock and I think it compares much better (trading 1 type for 1 alignment descriptor and an energy bonus is a better comparison than 1 type for 2 alignment descriptors).

The nice thing about both versions is that if you already have bane, it is conceivably less expensive to make it "greater bane".

Technik

 

[kreynolds]

A CL12 can create this effect on a sword, as a +4 enhancement equivalent (so ~16K IIRC, don't have the books)...

32,000, not including the cost of the rest of the weapon and the minimum +1 enhancement.

The only sticking point I see is DR bypass effect. The DR bypass will be more effective against creatures that have odd DR types, or multiple DR types (like the more powerful demons); hence, this effect is of variable "worth" depending on which type of creature is selected.

No more or less so than bane already is though, IMO.

 

[kreynolds]

But isn't Bane, Regular only a +1 enhancement now?

Yup. Good change, IMO.

So I could make a Dragon-bane, Red Dragon Bane Sword which would enhance the enhancement bonus by +2 and deal +4d6 extra damage against red dragons. Heck I could pick 2 more specific Dragon types to affect before I got +4.

Assuming you can stack bane, yes. If it can indeed stack, I don't know why you'd want to limit the second application to red dragons though, as opposed to simply selecting _all_ dragons again. Why the limitation?

I think it would be better as a +3 enhancement as follows:

Automatically pierces chosen DR
+3d6 damage against chosen foe
Automatic critical on a '20'

So far, the other suggestion I've been given to bring it closer to an actual +4 (which is where I need it to be, since I've already written up Improved Bane at +3) is to allow the auto-crit ability to function on the weapon's complete _natural_ threat range. I'm seriously considering that.

The nice thing about both versions is that if you already have bane, it is conceivably less expensive to make it "greater bane".

I agree. When all is said and done, I'll have versions of bane to cover +2, +3, and +4 modifiers.

 

[Technik4]

In my opinion you can't have a bane thats worth +4. +4 could represent something like Holy Lawful, which as you know, are powerful effects. Even a +4 to hit +4 damage on every swing is nothing to laugh at. But if I said +4d6 against a certain type, it will just never live up to the real value. How often is that bane going to come into play? And anytime it doesnt (I guesstimate at very least 50% of the time) your weapon is +4 worse than its gold piece value would indicate.

+4 may work for epic characters who have the massive gold to be upgrading their old enhancements, but in regular play all it seems like it would do would be to hose one type of monster such that the dm wouldnt want to bring it into play very often (because it gets slaughtered) or the dm feels compelled to bring it in (since the character "deserves" it for spending so much gold on an enchancement).

Of course, I'd like to see Improved Bane and whatever the +2 version is called.

Technik

 

[kreynolds]

But if I said +4d6 against a certain type, it will just never live up to the real value. How often is that bane going to come into play?

As a DM, I recognize the limitations of the bane ability just as much as the limitations of the ranger's favored enemy. Where a ranger is concerned, a game needs to be catered somewhat to the ranger. If the ranger's selected favored enemies aren't a feature in the game, then the ranger simply doesn't need to be there. It's like a game with a Knight of the Chalice. If the game doesn't involve demons, the KotC is a waste. It's not that a +4 version of bane can't live up to its worth in any game. That's simply not true. It's just that a +4 version of a dragon bane weapon would be fitting in a game with dragons. Take the dragons out, and naturally, it's not worth much anymore.

The reverse could even be applied to vorpal. If the game heavily features zombies and other sorts of undead, the +5 of vorpal certainly isn't worth it. Or if a game heavily features creatures with the fire subtype, then a x4 flaming weapon isn't worth anything either.

So yes, if a game doesn't feature the proper fuel, a +4 version of bane won't burn very brightly, but the same goes for _any_ version of bane, and even the ranger.

Of course, I'd like to see Improved Bane and whatever the +2 version is called.

No problem. Let me finish a few things up on this one first, then I'll toss up the +3 and begin work on the +2. I think I'm gonna have to do some renaming though.