Banks & Taxes: rules/suggestions?

[taliesin15]

Been looking round the core rulebooks but can't seem to find anything on banks in urban areas (where adventurers might want to stash their loot) and then there's the whole issue of taxes, levies, duties, tolls and so on. I've been house-ruling it the way 1st edition AD&D did it in the DMG, but I was thinking surely WOTC (or someone) might have come up with something better or more realistic, or put together a series of possible scenarios.

IMHO, such economic considerations work best in game situations similar to Nehwon.

BTW, *great* new layout--if I wasn't a coffee shop barista barely making money to live on, I'd seriously think of becoming a community supporter.

 

[Greatwyrm]

Really, most tolls and taxes that would be in a typical fantasy world wouldn't bother an adventurer much after first or second level. Who cares if it's a cp to get across the bridge when your +1 sword is literally worth 100,000 times that? I've even had PCs leave large amounts of copper or silver in a dungeon because it wasn't worth their time to haul it out.

If you'd still like to simulate something like this, I'd recommend using the optional upkeep rules, like in Living Greyhawk. Every month you pay a flat fee for the standard of living you want and you're done.

 

[kigmatzomat]

For the most part I assume taxes are built into the prices given. It only comes into play when you own land or have some store or craft shop and even then I use the profession rules more than the craft rules to determine value of run-of-the-mill items.

I'm thinking I should levy some taxes into item creation for sale but not sure where yet.

Now I do have fees to enter cities (1-5sp) and registration fees for equipment. It's a couple of silver pieces per weapon, shield & suit of armor and a few coppers for each mount. Magic items are taxed at 1 gp/each in addition to other fees. Once you cross a threshold the large cities will have casters use detect magic if you don't declare any magic items.
The logic is that magic items are likely targeted by thieves so there will be more police action. Weapons & armor suggest trouble so again, more police action. Mounts are taxed a small fee to cover street cleaning for the day of entrance and leaving; all stables in the city collect a flat per-mount fee for the same thing and residents pay an annual tax.

While a few gold pieces are no big deal, it's each and every time. Once characters find themselves spending 15-20gp each when they visit a city, rewarding them with "no entrance fees for the next year" seems like a big deal. The fact that they can skip to the head of the line is another little RP perk they enjoy.

 

[taliesin15]

good suggestions there on taxes...back to that in a moment...

what I'd still like help on is whether there's any suggestions on banks--I mean, the scenario that the adventurers (let's say mid level...5th-10th level) might stash a significant amount of loot (10-100K gp) while on a longish adventure, let's say one that involves sailing to another continent, only to come home to find that the bank was robbed...

back to taxes...and while I did mention something about a simulation of a Nehwon type of world, in one sense, the milieu I'm GMing now is a bit more of a crisis-mode milieu, in other words, these are lands constantly ravaged by petty wars, skirmishes, viking style raids, and so on....somewhere I read that the suggested percentage of fulltime military personnel to be something on the order of 1% of the population (or 1% of the adult population, which would be even smaller!)--the only reason why humans have banded together in tight urban areas (they aren't many generations from tribes) is for common defense--the walls of these towns were hastily put together (think of the Celts)--based on tar-lined timber more than stone--I guess what I'm leading up to is the wartime footing is much more immediate here, and town burghers and officials and warlords are looking with a greedy eye to adventurers hauling back loads of armor and weapons from Orcs, Goblins, Kobolds and the like (low level adventure)--they want their cut, but at least they are killing "the enemy" (issues of genocide for another thread later)--anyhow, the situation is such where they are torn between getting their pound of flesh and letting them do their work for them--another added benefit is more arms are coming to the town...its a situation where I'm not just talking about one silver piece tolls...its more like they want *at least* 10%

 

[The Amazing Dingo]

In the medieval world taxes were much higher then they are today. And when a government is in a state of war, those taxes will be even higher. I say go for it and make sure to spring it on them just after they get a decent haul from an adventure (and find themselves paying all their coin just for the taxes on their goods...and don't forget to have the government over estimate their magical items' prices). I think its perfectly logical when under a constant state of attack and having to keep a fair-sized military standing.

However, you might want to consider the impact and your PC's reactions. Will they stand for this? If not, what will they do? Are they going to go talk to the mayor and try to negotiate a deal or perhaps just never come back to the city?

In my game the government is coming under attack from several angles and needs more funds. Many people are fleeing to the capital as refugees and the King will shortly be instigating a sizable entrance fee to the city which more then a few peasants won't be able ot afford. Should be interesting to see how my PC reacts (being a noble, she is socially above it, not to mention she could easily afford it even if she did have to pay for it).

 

[taliesin15]

Dingo: right, the milieu I'm using isn't fullscale war, but more like halfway there--raids on farms, armed bandits in the woods, possibility of Orc tribes in the hills launching a nighttime attack, etc. Seems to me that standing military in this case needs to be on the order of 5-10% of the population, with "reserves"/citizen militia waiting in the wings, maybe doing archery practice in their free time, etc., but otherwise sticking with their farm jobs and suchlike--thus it seems that taxes would be high, but not quite to the point of being punitive...

...but back to banks...it seems like in an dark ages/early medieval setting as the one I describe, where war is a constant threat and taxes are high, characters might not want to put their money in banks if they exist at all, since that would create records (presumably) of their wealth making it easy for the local seneschal to exact duties, levies, and property taxes...

 

[The Amazing Dingo]

I agree with you there. If anything, the PC's might want to say that they put their money into banks and only put a portion of it into there. The rest of it they could hide under their mattress (figuratively) or perhaps invest it into some business or such under the table.

If you want an incentive to invest it, it has to be interest. That or things such as a break in taxes for putting a certain amount of money into it. Of course, if high taxes are the norm then the characters should be use to it (while the players might not be).

 

[taliesin15]

part of the way this is set up is as a legitimization to practice genocide on humanoids such as Orcs, Goblins and so on--these neanderthalish types are too backwards to set up a "civilized" society, they keep raiding our crops and livestock, we must collect funds to make weapons and kill them--this legitiimizes the economy and the military footing and high taxes and the notion of a heroic ethos justifying genocide...

yeah, good idea on creating incentives to invest, I just thought since the 3.0/3.5 systems are so much more advanced in some ways over previous AD&D incarnations, that somewhere there might have been (Greyhawk?) some varying economic paradigms...other than platinum, electrum, gold, silver and copper piece...

 

[Nifft]

Money Changing: Who can write "bank notes" big enough to buy a magic sword? Who can make change for a diamond as big as your head? Dragons. After you get to a certain level, you'll find there are few choices in who you deal with.

-- N

 

[kigmatzomat]

what I'd still like help on is whether there's any suggestions on banks--I mean, the scenario that the adventurers (let's say mid level...5th-10th level) might stash a significant amount of loot (10-100K gp) while on a longish adventure, let's say one that involves sailing to another continent, only to come home to find that the bank was robbed...

I don't recall medieval banks being a way to store wealth; more a place that had a lot of wealth that made more by loaning it out. Banking for the masses wasn't the norm. Paying interest on money in the bank was essentially your cut for your money's leaveraged wealth.
Extrapolating out to a larger scale, you don't deposit money into a bank, you *buy* into the bank. Your money buys you shares of the bank's total capital. Realistically speaking, a banks' equity should be mostly non-cash and of the interest bearing form (meaning liens against property, stores, merchants, etc).
Robbing the vault essentially takes the petty cash; the portion of capital that isn't earning its keep but needs to be kept around to handle the daily operations of the bank.

back to taxes... these are lands constantly ravaged by petty wars, skirmishes, viking style raids, and so on....somewhere I read that the suggested percentage of fulltime military personnel to be something on the order of 1% of the population --I guess what I'm leading up to is the wartime footing is much more immediate here, and town burghers and officials and warlords are looking with a greedy eye to adventurers hauling back loads of armor and weapons from Orcs, Goblins, Kobolds and the like (low level adventure)--they want their cut, but at least they are killing "the enemy" (issues of genocide for another thread later)--anyhow, the situation is such where they are torn between getting their pound of flesh and letting them do their work for them--another added benefit is more arms are coming to the town...its a situation where I'm not just talking about one silver piece tolls...its more like they want *at least* 10%

Wait, do you mean a toll (pay this to enter the city) or a tax on sale? I had tolls, not taxes. As far as the tax on sale, wouldn't that be built into the "sell for 50%" rules in the DMG? You could just lower the base selling percentage and say it's a result of taxes. Only PCs selling retail (what, without being a guild member? Guido, educate the man) would need to directly process taxes.

As far as tolls, mine were set at around 3% so for a short sword you'd pay 3sp. Go ahead and do a 10% toll. Make it efficient and allow the adventurers to simply hand over one weapon in ten. Then turn it into a plot point with larger reaching impact. Arrange to give them a letter of marquis, deputize them, make them "military contractors." They are given assignments (lose some freedom) but gain some financial advantages.

The flip side is the town will have to provide some value for the onerous tolls/taxes making it worthwhile. Realistically speaking if one town decides to stop charging fees for people with orc-loot, they get all the traffic from the orc killers and get a massive boost in the economy with a lot of supplemental taxes income (call it the taxation loss-leader). Or do you end up with a tent-town outside the real town to serve the people who don't want to pay the city fees? (Sounds like a great setup for the thieves guild)