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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 6405787" data-attributes="member: 5889">So with the concerns around low level circle druids, I wanted to run a quick math sanity check to see how the Moon Druid compares to its closest martial equivalent, the barbarian. Both rely on non Ac methods of absorbing damage with limited resource abilities.The main concern is around the low levels, so lets take a look at 2nd level and see how they perform.Setup Primal Rage: 2nd level Half-Orc Berserker BarbarianStr: 17 (15+2racial) Dex: 15 (15) Con: 16 (15+1 racial) Int: 8 Wis: 8 Cha: 8AC: 16 (10+2dex+4scalemail)HP: 25Weapon: Greatsword +5 2d6+3 (10) dmgOne with Nature: 2nd level Wood Elf Moon Circle DruidStr: 8 Dex: 17 (15+2racial) Con: 15 Int: 8 Wis: 16 (15+1racial) Cha: 8AC: 15 (10+3 dex + 1leather+2shield)HP: 17Weapon: Scimitar +5 1d6+3 (6.5) dmgAs far forms go, both the Dire Wolf and Giant Spider looked very good. I went with the Dire Wolf as its more straightforward. Note: A lot of people were curious about the brown bear, in this example it did just a tad worse than the wolf. Better DPR but less durability.Dire Wolf: WildshapeAC: 14HP: 37Attack: +5, 2d6+3 (10) damageTo face these guys, I pulled out a nice straightforward CR 2 monster, the Gnoll Pack Lord.Gnoll Pack LordAC: 15HP: 49Attack: +5/+5 1d10+3 (8.5) dmg.Round 1For this round, lets just see what the Druid's shifted form can do on its own vs a Barbarian in rage. Terms:DPR - Damage per RoundDTPR - Damage taken Per RoundRIS - Rounds I Survived (HP / DTPR)Overall Effectiveness (DPR * RIS)BarbarianDPR: 6.95DTPR: 4.525RIS: 5.52Overall Effectiveness: 38.364Dire WolfDue to the proning attack and pack tactics, I am going to assume advantage on the rolls to account for those abilities. I am not factoring in that other characters would get to take advantage of that proening ability.DPR: 8.61DTPR: 10.75RIS: 3.44Overall Effectiveness: 29.6184Conclusion: The barbarian's outright toughness is still holding out against the wolf's superior damage...somewhat. However, the other factor to consider is that every hit the Barb has taken has to be healed, while every hit to the wolf is basically "free". Round 2 So the druid has been knocked out of wildshape, but still continues to fight in melee with her remaining stats. Lets see how she fares.DruidDPR: 3.75DTPR: 9.9RIS: 1.71Overall Effectiveness: 6.4125+Dire Wolf Effectivness: 29.6184Total: 36.0309Conclusion: The non-wildshaped druid is not a strong melee combatant, and doesn't last very long. But combined with the wolf, they are just about equivalant to the barb.Round 3 Full out. Druid uses both wildshape + her own form.Overall Effectiveness: 65.6493 (71% better than the barb).Overall Conclusions: As I frequently state, math alone cannot tell the tale, unless you see a very strong trend in the numbers. In this case, I see a trend.The moon druid with 1 use of their short rest ability is keeping pace with a barbarian using one of their dailies. We have not even factored in spellcasting into the equation. With both uses, the druid is significantly stronger. Further, while the barbarian comes out of a fight needing a lot of healing, the druid will often come out with barely a scratch. There have been concerns about the moon druid at low levels, and this quick analysis echoes those concerns. The druid is able to surpass the barbarian on his own turf...with only a portion of their class features (again haven't even touched spellcasting).Round 4: As requested, people asked how the two would fare if the Barb had used his rages and the Druid her wildshapes. With that, the druid is going to resolve to spellcasting. Now a melee fighter compared to a spellcaster is a very different ballgame, but I will do the best I can to make the comparison.First the Barb:Barbarian (No Rage)DPR: 5.85DTPR: 9.05RIS: 2.75Overall Effectiveness: 16.0875For Druid there is a number of ways we can go. Lets assume she has one attack cantrip, and then the other one is noncombat. Lets try Shillelagh. The easiest comparison is to give the druid 3 castings of healing word..to simply represent increased toughness. With that:Druid (Shillelagh, +3 healing wordsDPR: 4.35DTPR: 9.9RIS: 3.69 (17 hp to start, added 19.5 hp for 3 healing words)Overall Effectiveness: 16.0515 (neck in neck with the barb)If we used 3 thunderwaves instead, it would bump the DPR to 6.525, but cut the RIS more than half, so ultimately is worse off. If there were more than 1 creature, it would be a lot stronger.Lets consider entangle. If we assume that the druid starts at 30 feet  away (which is the range of most of her ranged spells, so a reasonable assumption). She casts it on the Gnoll, to ensure as much difficult terrain between herself and the gnoll as possible.The difficult terrain will stop the gnoll for 1 round as it moves to get to the druid. The entangle will hold the Gnoll for 1.48 rounds on average. So 2.48 rounds - 1 for the action the druid took to cast it. So effectively entangle buys the druid +1.48 RIS (a healing word bought us .66 RIS, so a good sign). In order for entangle to work, we need to switch from shillelagh to produce flame as we need a ranged option.Druid, Produce Flame + 3 entanglesDPR: 2.7DTPR: 9.9RIS: 1.72 + 4.44 (3 entangles) = 6.16Overall Effectiveness: 16.632Overall Conclusion: Again, comparing spells to melee prowess directly is difficult, especially in this kind of 1 on 1 grudge match scenario. But the numbers look close enough, that is appears a druid that relies on their spells can hold their own with a barb that has no rages left, at least for one combat.Round 5One houserule people have been considering in another thread was to allow the Moon Druid CR 1/2 forms at 2nd level. I thought I would take a look and see what that would offer. Looking over the CR 1/2 forms, the Ape seems the most battle worthy, so lets take a look.ApeAC: 12HP: 19Attack: +5/+5 1d6+3 dmgDPR: 7.5DTPR: 12.45RIS: 1.53Overall Effectiveness: 11.475+ Druid (6.4125): 17.8875+One more Wildshape (11.475): 29.3625Overall Conclusions: Amazing what 1/2 CR makes, our grand total is equivalent to one use of Dire Wolf wildshaping...without factoring in the druid herself. Overall, with 1 use of Ape wildshape, the druid is roughly on par with the barb without rage (maybe a tad better). With 2 uses, they are a good bit beyond a rageless barb, but a fair amount behind a barb in full rage. Once again I did not factor in any spell casting.</blockquote>

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