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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Persiflage" data-source="post: 5276313" data-attributes="member: 73597">I think whether standard Rage or Whirling Frenzy is "better" very much depends on the overall game setup.  In the majority of games I've been playing or DM'ing in the last couple of years, the consensus has been that "Rage is better".  This is largely due to: the longer duration of Rage (yes, StreamOfTheSky, we too experience "rage expiry"); the boost to hp, Fortitude and Will saves; and finally the fact that it's rare for our melee monsters to get multiple rounds of full attacks, so the extra attack is - more often than not - failing to come into play.In another group I've played with less frequently, the combats tend to be... ahem...  more "straightforward": which is to say, "the DM dumps a pile of appropriately-CR'd creatures into a room and we go in and kill them".  I built a character that had Whirling Frenzy for that game and got deep joy from it  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />So, it's a bit situational.A final note on comparative strengths though: I realise that this is subjective, but my opinion is that a boost to either Will or Fortitude saves (let alone both) is superior to a boost to Reflex saves, particularly for a character with a big pile of hit points.  The effects of failing Will and Fort saves are, in general, much more severe than Reflex saves, the latter of which tend towards "take some d6 damage" (and yes, there are notable exceptions) whilst the former two tend towards "lose the ability to take one or more types of action" or even "kill the rest of the party".</blockquote>

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