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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8788583" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>I agree with this, but I would actually point out that the defining feature of the Lore bard wasn't magical secrets. It was cutting words. Magical secrets was the most powerful ability, because it allowed them to get fireball or other spells they couldn't normally access, but Cutting words is the first and most consistently useful ability they get. That, and the skill profs, which pretty much nothing can be done with.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I hate abilities like this. It is entirely a waste. 90% of the time it tells you what you already know, and the 10% of the time it doesn't you now know forever. And it never tells you the actually useful information.</p><p></p><p>Plus, it becomes worthless if the players have any chance to prepare or roll the skill check before the fight.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The thief ability? Well, the scrolls is kind of pointless for higher level bards. They would already have access to scrolls for 75% of all spells, 85% if they didn't pick arcane for magical secrets. It sounds good on paper, the execution is just underwhelming I think. </p><p></p><p>The same with the magic items. The vast majority of item pre-reqs is "spellcasting" which you have. Other than that you are looking at maybe five or six items that have highly specific pre-reqs like the Holy Avenger. And getting the ability to attune to it doesn't help you if you don't have proficiency in the type of weapon. </p><p></p><p>This was the issue I had with the (old) Thief Ability. Since being a spellcaster overcame the majority of the pre-reqs, it was worse than just being an arcane trickster in the first place. With bard's already being spellcasters, there isn't much here to latch on to. </p><p></p><p>Now, that might change, as it sounds like some items are going to be getting attunement based on class group, but the secondary issue that Bards aren't going to get much use out of attuning to a battleaxe still remains, </p><p></p><p>I'm not trying to neg you, just pointing out the issues with the idea as presented.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The use of a spell from any list is already magical secrets. And the ability to cast any single spell without needing to prepare it is, well, accomplished by giving them a single extra preparation slot. And again, I think both of these scream "MAGE" more than they do expert in lore.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why does it have to be magical lore? If you wanted to be an expert in lore, why not advantage on all intelligence skill checks, or reliable talent that only works for the knowledge skills? Both of those are far more "I am the master of obscure lore" than "I can hack magical items" or "I cast more magic" </p><p></p><p>Or...hmmm... </p><p></p><p>What about messing with the Planar Binding and Contact Other Planes spells? They are on the list if memory serves, but they could gain access to improved versions of those. Obscure lore leading them to being able to better barter with outer planar beings and bind them into services sounds at least closer, since the True Names of fiends are often obscure lore.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8788583, member: 6801228"] I agree with this, but I would actually point out that the defining feature of the Lore bard wasn't magical secrets. It was cutting words. Magical secrets was the most powerful ability, because it allowed them to get fireball or other spells they couldn't normally access, but Cutting words is the first and most consistently useful ability they get. That, and the skill profs, which pretty much nothing can be done with. I hate abilities like this. It is entirely a waste. 90% of the time it tells you what you already know, and the 10% of the time it doesn't you now know forever. And it never tells you the actually useful information. Plus, it becomes worthless if the players have any chance to prepare or roll the skill check before the fight. The thief ability? Well, the scrolls is kind of pointless for higher level bards. They would already have access to scrolls for 75% of all spells, 85% if they didn't pick arcane for magical secrets. It sounds good on paper, the execution is just underwhelming I think. The same with the magic items. The vast majority of item pre-reqs is "spellcasting" which you have. Other than that you are looking at maybe five or six items that have highly specific pre-reqs like the Holy Avenger. And getting the ability to attune to it doesn't help you if you don't have proficiency in the type of weapon. This was the issue I had with the (old) Thief Ability. Since being a spellcaster overcame the majority of the pre-reqs, it was worse than just being an arcane trickster in the first place. With bard's already being spellcasters, there isn't much here to latch on to. Now, that might change, as it sounds like some items are going to be getting attunement based on class group, but the secondary issue that Bards aren't going to get much use out of attuning to a battleaxe still remains, I'm not trying to neg you, just pointing out the issues with the idea as presented. The use of a spell from any list is already magical secrets. And the ability to cast any single spell without needing to prepare it is, well, accomplished by giving them a single extra preparation slot. And again, I think both of these scream "MAGE" more than they do expert in lore. Why does it have to be magical lore? If you wanted to be an expert in lore, why not advantage on all intelligence skill checks, or reliable talent that only works for the knowledge skills? Both of those are far more "I am the master of obscure lore" than "I can hack magical items" or "I cast more magic" Or...hmmm... What about messing with the Planar Binding and Contact Other Planes spells? They are on the list if memory serves, but they could gain access to improved versions of those. Obscure lore leading them to being able to better barter with outer planar beings and bind them into services sounds at least closer, since the True Names of fiends are often obscure lore. [/QUOTE]
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