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<blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 8791357" data-attributes="member: 6750235"><p>They eventually had access to those spells via captured spell books or found scrolls. Or research or DM rewards or magic item stores depending the DM and campaign style. Harder access isn't the same thing as lack of access. By high levels it was minor distinction while the playtest magical secrets doesn't grant that access until 11th level. In granting that access it's still a limitation on the number available at the given time compared to a wizard and denying access to the divine or primal lists to create an opportunity cost.</p><p></p><p>The playtest bard is limited to 4 schools and can have 2 of the rest at any given time at higher levels. The 2e bard beats that by prepping 3 spells outside of those 4 schools and can do it earlier than 11th level.</p><p></p><p>I would also point out that 2e wizards didn't have all the spells, however. There were 3 methods of determining starting spells (player choice, DM choice, or collab) in the DMG. It was pretty much read magic, detect magic, and 4 other spells by DM choice. They also had to find spells leveling up to inscribe. Specialists got a free school spell without a knowledge roll but could not learn opposition schools at all and had lower rolls to learn non-specialized schools. </p><p></p><p>The intelligence chart determined the chance to learn the spell and dictated the maximum number of spells that could be learned. 2e was the edition a wizard could fail to learn fireball when a bard could, and the bard would cast it at a higher level because of the class progression tables and XP bonus options.</p><p></p><p>2e bards were great arcane casters and could easily have access to spells wizards did not. Part of the issue here is we don't really have the new playtest wizard to really compare to the new playtest bard, but a 2e to 2e comparison doesn't seem to line up with what you are saying.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The spells known was the limitation, not the spells available. But when we look specifically at secrets in lyric thaumaturge what we ended up with was the bard having access to the full sorcerer list and the full bard list to have options not available to wizards or sorcerers. The sublime chord also granted access to those high level spells to also give bard spells / songs as options not available to wizards or sorcerers.</p><p></p><p>Bards ultimately had a strong selection in their caster PrC's and given the casting system in that edition a comparison to sorcerers is more accurate than wizards.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's a plus. The idea that bards could use magical secrets as a form of spell research isn't really different from any other spellcaster selecting which spells among the many when leveling up. </p><p></p><p>As it is, the playtest spell system leaves bards with more spell access in some ways when they're just using the same spell casting system as artificers now, but in other ways it leaves out a lot spells no longer available because they were on the class list and now are not.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ashrym, post: 8791357, member: 6750235"] They eventually had access to those spells via captured spell books or found scrolls. Or research or DM rewards or magic item stores depending the DM and campaign style. Harder access isn't the same thing as lack of access. By high levels it was minor distinction while the playtest magical secrets doesn't grant that access until 11th level. In granting that access it's still a limitation on the number available at the given time compared to a wizard and denying access to the divine or primal lists to create an opportunity cost. The playtest bard is limited to 4 schools and can have 2 of the rest at any given time at higher levels. The 2e bard beats that by prepping 3 spells outside of those 4 schools and can do it earlier than 11th level. I would also point out that 2e wizards didn't have all the spells, however. There were 3 methods of determining starting spells (player choice, DM choice, or collab) in the DMG. It was pretty much read magic, detect magic, and 4 other spells by DM choice. They also had to find spells leveling up to inscribe. Specialists got a free school spell without a knowledge roll but could not learn opposition schools at all and had lower rolls to learn non-specialized schools. The intelligence chart determined the chance to learn the spell and dictated the maximum number of spells that could be learned. 2e was the edition a wizard could fail to learn fireball when a bard could, and the bard would cast it at a higher level because of the class progression tables and XP bonus options. 2e bards were great arcane casters and could easily have access to spells wizards did not. Part of the issue here is we don't really have the new playtest wizard to really compare to the new playtest bard, but a 2e to 2e comparison doesn't seem to line up with what you are saying. The spells known was the limitation, not the spells available. But when we look specifically at secrets in lyric thaumaturge what we ended up with was the bard having access to the full sorcerer list and the full bard list to have options not available to wizards or sorcerers. The sublime chord also granted access to those high level spells to also give bard spells / songs as options not available to wizards or sorcerers. Bards ultimately had a strong selection in their caster PrC's and given the casting system in that edition a comparison to sorcerers is more accurate than wizards. That's a plus. The idea that bards could use magical secrets as a form of spell research isn't really different from any other spellcaster selecting which spells among the many when leveling up. As it is, the playtest spell system leaves bards with more spell access in some ways when they're just using the same spell casting system as artificers now, but in other ways it leaves out a lot spells no longer available because they were on the class list and now are not. [/QUOTE]
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