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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 8792452" data-attributes="member: 18">My experience is that front-line combatants already do take things seriously and already are cautious.My experience is that the usual "point of failure" that leads to yoyo'ing isn't the front-line combatants being incautious or unserious about combat. It's that the rest of their team rarely takes supporting them seriously, because they know they can yoyo them. The actual frontline combatant knows that all it takes it some extra damage to hit them from a few sources and they're dead-dead, the rest of the team are usually pretty sure they can drop some kind of minimum-size heal and stop that.This is why I think it's important to not look at Fighters and the like as the source of the problem here.I mean, a lot of healers, and I've been absolutely guilty of this in 5E, just don't really want to heal anyone who isn't already down, because it's literally inefficient.If you make rules that only penalize the PCs who get downed, not the ones who let them go down, you're unlikely to change this dynamic. The only way that even helps is the whinging from the players whose PCs get downed might cause the rest of the players to rethink. But a lot of players just won't even whinge! They'll just grin and take it.I think maybe the best way to do this would not be to make people who get downed get punished in any way, not by injuries, and not by death, but rather to make so when they're down, they stay down for at least a round or two (even if they're fine), so the monster they were "tanking" (more likely blocking from getting to the rest of the party) can go and pummel the idiots who decided not to cast any spells or really do anything to prevent that guy going down.I've absolutely seen 3PP like that and it is frustrating. However, what's even more frustrating (imho) is 3PP that is just wildly more powerful than WotC options to the point where there's zero comparison, and this is particularly bad when it's from a like a fairly "pro" 3PP outfit, who should know better. A great example is the Blood Hunter - it's easily as powerful as 1.5 normal classes. Each of the subclasses basically adds 30-80% of entire other class (like Barbarian or Warlock) to the Blood Hunter. Hell, there's a Barbarian-style subclass that gives you literally every major thing a Barbarian with a specific subclass get and then some. That's like 2.1 classes lol.Personally my experience is that way more 3PP is just wacky OP than frustratingly UP, but YMMV. I'm always looking for that sweet spot in-between, and you do find it sometimes.</blockquote>

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