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Bard vs Bard
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<blockquote data-quote="Victim" data-source="post: 54485" data-attributes="member: 78"><p>I assumed a successful use of Sustain song for double duration (20 DC) in my example. For low level bards, even with high abilities scores, there's a not insignificant chance of failure with the check. Even extending the chart won't help much because they'll be more likely to fail. I don't see much point in a charm that barely lasts long enough to exchange introductions. I have thought of one use: charm someone to get them to cease their attack, then use Diplomacy to attempt a more lasting change in attitude. However, one probably wouldn't have enough time to even do that.</p><p></p><p>The problem with adding new songs is that the levels that various songs are aquired change greatly. As mentioned earlier, Charm Monster at level 7 versus 13. Which is more appropriate? Bards could take Dominate at level 10. It's generally superior to Charm Monster, but the only appropriate slots would be at the melody level. There's little room for more powerful effects. Some effects, such as Mass Suggestion, are probably to powerful for the existing categories, thus depriving bards of group attack ability.</p><p></p><p>Adding a minimum level would be very similar to introducing a new song "level," except that there's then little reason to use similar effects because you can trade one for one. Why not just add some more song ranks, thus adding a better power curve?</p><p></p><p>Also, several of the buff spells were changed to self only, thus reducing their group support role. Self only Haste isn't that impressive on a bard, especially when they have few other useful spells.</p><p></p><p>Who is going to want character throwing effects little better than cantrips at 5th level? Getting second level spells at 4th level is bad enough for sorcerers, but bards with cantrips/level one spells all the way until level 6 are almost inexcusable. I can't think of any other class that has scaling issues like that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Victim, post: 54485, member: 78"] I assumed a successful use of Sustain song for double duration (20 DC) in my example. For low level bards, even with high abilities scores, there's a not insignificant chance of failure with the check. Even extending the chart won't help much because they'll be more likely to fail. I don't see much point in a charm that barely lasts long enough to exchange introductions. I have thought of one use: charm someone to get them to cease their attack, then use Diplomacy to attempt a more lasting change in attitude. However, one probably wouldn't have enough time to even do that. The problem with adding new songs is that the levels that various songs are aquired change greatly. As mentioned earlier, Charm Monster at level 7 versus 13. Which is more appropriate? Bards could take Dominate at level 10. It's generally superior to Charm Monster, but the only appropriate slots would be at the melody level. There's little room for more powerful effects. Some effects, such as Mass Suggestion, are probably to powerful for the existing categories, thus depriving bards of group attack ability. Adding a minimum level would be very similar to introducing a new song "level," except that there's then little reason to use similar effects because you can trade one for one. Why not just add some more song ranks, thus adding a better power curve? Also, several of the buff spells were changed to self only, thus reducing their group support role. Self only Haste isn't that impressive on a bard, especially when they have few other useful spells. Who is going to want character throwing effects little better than cantrips at 5th level? Getting second level spells at 4th level is bad enough for sorcerers, but bards with cantrips/level one spells all the way until level 6 are almost inexcusable. I can't think of any other class that has scaling issues like that. [/QUOTE]
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