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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DreamChaser" data-source="post: 954688" data-attributes="member: 1190">You forgot skills.For the Bard:DiplomacyUMDSpeak Language (in 3.0, probably whatever version exists in 3.5)In combat: Group of orcs.  Bard knows orcish Casts Charm Person.  Orcs are not renowned for their will save.  Bard calls for help from new buddy.  New buddy starts to help (believing even more since bard knows orcish).Start again.Monsters often have low will saves.  Bards can capitalize on that when they get Charm Monster.Cast invisibilityUMD with a wand of summon monsterCast Major Image (or use a wand)Repeat until bad guys don't know which are the monsters and which are the illusions.And so on.  It just takes a little more finesse and a little less brute force to run a bard in combat.  Someone a while back replied to me saying that my argument that druids and rangers are less effective in the city was erronious but a previous argument that bards were useless in combat was fine.  They pointed out that a druids spells still work in the city (true, provided they can find the animals and plants to use them on, since many of them require that).  I would like to point out that a bard's social skills are useful in combat.  But they are more complicated to use than a fireball or a sword.DC</blockquote>