Bardic Versatility

[Viktyr Gehrig]

The Bard is supposedly the most versatile class in the game-- and they do have a number of useful abilities. They have moderate combat ability and proficiency in a number of weapons. They have the second-highest number of skills points of any class and the broadest list of class skills. They have access to spontaneous spellcasting-- technically arcane, but they get spells that no other arcane spellcaster is allowed to have. They also have multiple options for making their teammates even more effective.

Problem is, according to a lot of people, Bards suck. They're just not powerful enough.

What I'm thinking of doing is making Bardic magic both arcane and divine, at the character's option. Basically, they pick up a little bit of everything, and they're as good at channeling the gods as they are at using the neutral, uncaring energies of Wizards. This wouldn't have much effect, since divine magic is subject to spell failure from armor in my games-- but there are some creatures that are resistant to one type of magic or the other, and a number of PrCs that require the usage of one kind of magic or the other. This gives Bards several more options.

The other thing I am thinking of doing is giving the Bard the unique ability to acquire spells from other classes' spell lists. The argument over whether or not the Extra Spell feat allows this got me to thinking; obviously, Wizards shouldn't be allowed to pick Cleric spells and vice versa, but Bards used to get their spell list from the Mage list (back in 2e), and they're already allowed to learn a number of spells that used to be exclusive to divine casters.

The way I want to handle it is to give them a recurring class feature, similar to the Advanced Learning feature of the Warmage, that allows the Bard to pick a single spell, either off of any spell list (but not psionics or infusions) or off the spell list of a specific list of casting classes that includes Wizard/Sorceror, Cleric, and Druid at the very least. I'd also allow them to use Extra Spell in conjunction with this to pick up other "foreign" spells.

Is this unbalancing, or awkward? Is there any problem with doing this?

 

[IndyPendant]

Bards don't suck. (And I am an irrepressable balancer and buffer who's reworked the Sorceror, buffed the Fighter slightly, changed Ranger and Paladin spell progression, etc etc.) From what I have seen, this seems to be a common misconception spread by people who think that in order to be viable, a class must be 'the best' at something. That's not what the bard's about.

I can't really comment on your changes, other than that I don't like them. Not because they're too powerful or anything (although they might be) but because the bard's spellcasting is stylish. They aren't about crack-and-boom, or buffing themselves into combat powerhouses. They're about enchantments, illusions, subtle party buffs, that sort of thing. Bards shouldn't be able to Fireball, or Raise Dead, or Righteous Might, for example.

I have made some minor changes to bards in my campaigns though: 1) they get Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, and Trapfinding (so they can fill the Rogue roll if need be); 2) their bardsong bonuses are Music bonuses, not Morale bonuses (so they can stack with spells, including some of the best bard buff spells); 3) they gain the Inspire Spellcasting ability at 5th level (+1 caster level to all allies) without having to buy the feat; 4) I've approved Song of the Heart, and created a feat that allows a bard to activate two different bardsongs with a single action; and 5) given them acces to *certain* other spells (not all of them!) that they don't (like mass stat buffs, CMW, etc) that follow their theme.

All minor enhancements, all of which (except arguably the trapfinding) fall within the bard's theme. And none of which I think would be absolutely necessary to balance the class.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Bards don't suck. (And I am an irrepressable balancer and buffer who's reworked the Sorceror, buffed the Fighter slightly, changed Ranger and Paladin spell progression, etc etc.)

I don't think they suck, either. I like Bards, and I don't really think they need much more power-- but I do think they should be more flexible, particularly with magic.

Not because they're too powerful or anything (although they might be) but because the bard's spellcasting is stylish. They aren't about crack-and-boom, or buffing themselves into combat powerhouses. They're about enchantments, illusions, subtle party buffs, that sort of thing. Bards shouldn't be able to Fireball, or Raise Dead, or Righteous Might, for example.

Any change I make will leave the vast majority of any Bard's spellcasting repertoire derived from the Bard list. Also, Bards do have a number of spells incompatible with your statement here: cure critical wounds and shout, for instance.

2) their bardsong bonuses are Music bonuses, not Morale bonuses (so they can stack with spells, including some of the best bard buff spells);

Gaaah. I do not like the idea of providing some new bonus type, particularly something as nebulous as a "music" bonus.

4) I've approved Song of the Heart, and created a feat that allows a bard to activate two different bardsongs with a single action; and 5) given them acces to *certain* other spells (not all of them!) that they don't (like mass stat buffs, CMW, etc) that follow their theme.

I don't know what Song of the Heart is, but I like the idea of being able to activate multiple bardsongs in a single action.

#5 was already done in the 3.5 revision.

All minor enhancements, all of which (except arguably the trapfinding) fall within the bard's theme. And none of which I think would be absolutely necessary to balance the class.

I don't think my change is going to make them much more powerful, either.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Alright, this is my first shot:

Bardic Versatility:

• A Bard's caster level and spells count as both arcane and divine spells for the purposes of meeting prerequisites. If it matters, the Bard's spells may count as either arcane or divine, chosen at the time of casting.
• At any level when a Bard gains access to a new level of spells (2nd, 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, and 16th), they may add a spell from the spell list of any class as one of their Spells Known. They may not choose Cleric Domain spells or Shugenja Order spells.
• Bards, unlike other spellcasters, may use the Extra Spell feat to learn spells from the spell lists of other classes.

Basically, this gives the Bard an extra Spell Known per level (so far, all full spontaneous casters end up with an extra Spell Known per level, though it's typically from a fixed list) and allows them to choose one spell per level from any spellcasting list. They're still limited to 6th level spells and they can't get at unique spells.

If the Extra Spell use is a problem, I could easily remove that clause and limit them to the spells granted by the class feature. Another possible limitation is to restrict which spell lists (or even which schools, a la Warmage) the Bard may select spells from.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I remember noticing that, according to Upper Krust's deconstruction of the classes, a bard would still be balanced if it had a good BAB progression rather than a medium BAB.

That would probably make it too good for multiclass "dipping," though.

Otherwise, I like the notion of more versatile casting. I could imagine a primitive setting where there are no wizards or clerics, only bards. Then some variety of spells known would be very helpful to distinguish different bards, and would also hint at the "full" caster classes that have yet to develop.