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Bards have an identity problem!
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<blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 8072524" data-attributes="member: 18"><p>There's a lot of "facts not in evidence here". It's fine as an opinion, but I hope you're not suggesting 1 or 2 is actually fact.</p><p></p><p>Re: music magic - you don't need any more elaboration, I would suggest. There's no elaboration on where the magic that other classes use comes from in 5E. It's all extremely brief and vague. Indeed the most elaboration is probably Sorcerers and Warlocks, of all things. If you really want it, you can make it up. However I would suggest they're not "music mages" at all and this is in fact your own, somewhat idiosyncratic viewpoint.</p><p></p><p>As for "dabblers", that's just an outdated view. If they were "dabblers", like in 2E, they'd need a much faster XP table and so on. Rather all Bards in 5E are masters of lore and many are powerful spellcasters in their own ways, which are somewhat diverse. They fit much more closely to mythological accounts of sorcerers and wizards than actual D&D sorcerers and wizards tend to. Singing and music are very, very, very often magical in mythology. You seem to think this is unusual - on the contrary - magic that doesn't involve music or chanting (not stage magician, Harry Potter or SHAZAM-style phrases of power, either) is rarer in mythology.</p><p></p><p>Your own examples are incoherent. "Smooth talking entertainer" could be any class, in any edition. Dabbler is meaningless and clearly not the case in 5E (and it's got nothing to do with being a "smooth talking entertainer"), and "music mage" is your own projection. In fact most mages/wizards/sorcerers should be using music, chants, and understandable curses as part of their whole spellcasting deal, mythologically (and often in fantasy fiction too).</p><p></p><p>I think the real problem here is 3E.</p><p></p><p>3E had an exceptionally bad and stupid take on the Bard. It was ineffectual, it was bad at everything, and it had nonsensical magical abilities that seemed more like they were derived from EverQuest than earlier Bards or mythology or fantasy fiction. 3E introduced and locked in the mind of many people this ludicrous concept of the Bard as a fop with a lute who stands around singing "Sneak, sneak. sneak!" to help the Rogue. Some people want to return to that, I guess, just like some people want to return to LFQW, and so on.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ruin Explorer, post: 8072524, member: 18"] There's a lot of "facts not in evidence here". It's fine as an opinion, but I hope you're not suggesting 1 or 2 is actually fact. Re: music magic - you don't need any more elaboration, I would suggest. There's no elaboration on where the magic that other classes use comes from in 5E. It's all extremely brief and vague. Indeed the most elaboration is probably Sorcerers and Warlocks, of all things. If you really want it, you can make it up. However I would suggest they're not "music mages" at all and this is in fact your own, somewhat idiosyncratic viewpoint. As for "dabblers", that's just an outdated view. If they were "dabblers", like in 2E, they'd need a much faster XP table and so on. Rather all Bards in 5E are masters of lore and many are powerful spellcasters in their own ways, which are somewhat diverse. They fit much more closely to mythological accounts of sorcerers and wizards than actual D&D sorcerers and wizards tend to. Singing and music are very, very, very often magical in mythology. You seem to think this is unusual - on the contrary - magic that doesn't involve music or chanting (not stage magician, Harry Potter or SHAZAM-style phrases of power, either) is rarer in mythology. Your own examples are incoherent. "Smooth talking entertainer" could be any class, in any edition. Dabbler is meaningless and clearly not the case in 5E (and it's got nothing to do with being a "smooth talking entertainer"), and "music mage" is your own projection. In fact most mages/wizards/sorcerers should be using music, chants, and understandable curses as part of their whole spellcasting deal, mythologically (and often in fantasy fiction too). I think the real problem here is 3E. 3E had an exceptionally bad and stupid take on the Bard. It was ineffectual, it was bad at everything, and it had nonsensical magical abilities that seemed more like they were derived from EverQuest than earlier Bards or mythology or fantasy fiction. 3E introduced and locked in the mind of many people this ludicrous concept of the Bard as a fop with a lute who stands around singing "Sneak, sneak. sneak!" to help the Rogue. Some people want to return to that, I guess, just like some people want to return to LFQW, and so on. [/QUOTE]
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