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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Coredump" data-source="post: 2326429" data-attributes="member: 6939">Actually, I wanted it in more specifics. The numbers you 'made up' don't seem to hold together very well. The levels are off, and there is no indication of *how* the barbarian did 64 points in one attack, or why the mage and rogue are 10 levels apart, or why the BBEG is only a CR8...etc.But lets say the bad guy has only a 24 AC. And the fighter has a +18 to hit. So he only needs a 6 to hit. ANd will do 64 pts per hitThe Barb does 48pts per attack.Now the Bard gives +3/+3, so the Barb needs a 3 to hitThe barb does 60.6 points per attack. this is *assuming* the barb would hit on a 6 with full power attack. Now, what level is this Barb with 30 str? And why would the BBEG only have a 24 AC? 24 AC is pretty typical for a CR7-9 monster.A similar amount would happen for the thief.And for the Cleric once he decides to participate.Of course, with the Bard Song, he may be able to forgo the buffing and actually attack the first round. And this is why we need specifics, because they *will* help. Even if you only need a 6, the +3/+3 gives a 25% improvement. And once you need more (like a 10...) the impact is even more. If you regularly have to hits above their AC, then something else is wrong with your campaign. But your example clearly shows that Clerics are not good contributors to a party. Unless of course your made up example is lacking in some detail....</blockquote>