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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Snowy" data-source="post: 2329469" data-attributes="member: 20465">This is getting to be a really interesting discussion, I personally don't like the bard class, I can understand and appreciate it but mass multiple minion creating magical music doesn't appeal, the utility caster with odds and ends of useful spells and surprising and interesting spells and skills does though, I may end up playing a bard some time and just not think too much about the singing/chanting/screaming warcries bit of bard song (a goblin war drummer did appeal but being unarmed in combat and having hands full sounds a bit annoying, any one got a cunning get around for this?)On the other hand I thought I'd reply to soujourners post and answer his questions:Wizard against golem - buff party, change environment to aid fight, telehinethis knock walls on top of it, disintergrate ground from under it, imprison it with wall spellsFighter with DR that they can't bypass - only case where I can imagine that this is possible is with a dexterity based two weapon fighting feat tree fighter that has a low strength and no elemental weapons, not likely to be fighting something with high DR with that (at least if your playing DnD as set out by the core rules). After the changes from 3.0 to 3.5 the strength based fighter is still doing damage past DR even with out the right weapon.Rogue against undead - tanglefoot bags, alchemists fire, acid flasks, wand of fireball, wand of command undead, searilng light, taking out the commander (if not undead), using a tripping weapon (in my case a whip) to trip/disarm them.Though I understand your point that there are sub optimum situations for each class, they are by no means completely hosed in those circumstances unless they really are an extremely munchkined un balanced character and that can be done with anything one of the most un appealing being the diplomacy twinked bard.</blockquote>

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