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Message: <blockquote data-quote="der_kluge" data-source="post: 2889719" data-attributes="member: 945">I loathe the bard as written.I think it's an extremely weak and goofy class, especially if it's not played on its strengths.The major thing I hate about the bard in 3rd edition is that, unlike in 2nd edition, the bard is no longer a jack-of-all-trades. It's very clearly, and precisely an enchanter. Pure and simple. Unless the player making the bard applies skill points and spell selections towards enchantment, and skills related to charisma, they are very clearly missing the boat with the bard. That is, if I made a bard and took combat-related feats, and damage-dealing spells, I am going to be the suxxor. But if I put in a high charisma, take suggestion and charm person type spells, spell focus (enchantment) and max ranks in Bluff, Sense Motive, and Diplomacy, then I'm going to be a very effective character.At least so long as the party is actually interacting with other humanoids on a regular basis. If they're fighting undead, well, the bard will be next to useless.The bard's spellcasting should be Int-based not Cha based, as described above. He can't learn new spells in his travels, if they are inate to who he is. Sorcerers have a background and a reason to have inborn spellcasting. Bards do not. So, they're internally inconsistent from the get-go.Secondly, if you give Sorcerers Diplomacy as a class skill, you almost negate any reason for having a Bard in the group. The Bardic Music thing is also problematic. I think people who play a more leisurely, casual style of game don't mind the Bardic Music thing, because for them, it's a game effect, pure and simple, like casting a bless spell. No different. But for those that actually like a little verisimilitude to their game, the idea of a guy singing Freebird in the corner of the dungeon while the party faces off against an 8 headed Hydra is a *little* absurd. I tried one time to create a replacement for the Bard (actually two) - one called a Minstrel, and the other called a Jack-of-all-trades. The latter being more of an Expert type - nothing fancy. The former was a lot of work, and would require extensive playtesting. Essentially, it was modeled on the bard from Everquest (the MMORPG, not the PnP RPG, though it might be similar, I don't know). The idea was that Bards could choose two songs every level (out of 4 possible songs) from one of 5 categories (defense, offense, utility, charm, and healing) and it could play the song and create the effect. The effects lasted as long as the minstrel was playing. In this sense, the minstrel was like a spellsinger of a sort, and used magic to create effects. One doesn't even need to tie the idea of music into it. It would work just as another kind of spellcaster.I'd way prefer to see that kind of Bard over the existing incarnation.</blockquote>

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