Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Bards Should Be Half-Casters in 5.5e/6e
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8391411" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>Why does it <em>need</em> to say that? It says what Teleportation Circle does. The PHB inspires. It doesn't treat you like you are a six year old and sit down, holding your hand, and pointing out every single possibility that can be done in explicit detail. I would not <em>want</em> a PHB that was as absurdly restrictive as you seem to want, letting you only use a class for a few things and no others.</p><p></p><p>Teleportation circle doesn't create a permanent wayport unless you cast the spell every day for a year. Travelling places is well within bardic themes.</p><p></p><p>Bards are quite literally the only class to get all three words of power in 5e (stun, kill, heal). Although to be fair Divine Word is cleric only - but the bard if they want the theme can grab it with Mystical Secrets at level 14. Where there <em>is</em> a words of power theme it belongs to bards more than any other class. And if you think there should be more truenaming for some bards then the problem isn't that these are on the bard list, it's that there aren't m,ore.</p><p></p><p>And this is getting into why bards and sorcerers both lead to much more interesting and thematic characters than wizards and clerics. When you play a wizard or, worse, a cleric, your magic is ultimately pretty cookie cutter. You simply have access to all the spells both in character and out.</p><p></p><p>On the other hand when playing a sorcerer, bard, warlock, or ranger you define your spell list for this character in specific. If I want a bard who's about true naming and words of creation I can pick spells that fit that theme. If I want an illusionist and mindbender who has nothing to do with words of creation I can pick those. And neither of these choices invalidates the other.</p><p></p><p>What this means is that if you think that a spell doesn't fit your personal bard <em>no one is forcing you to pick it either in character or out.</em> So its presence on the spell list isn't a problem unless you like policing other peoples' characters and telling them that they are having BadWrongFun</p><p></p><p>Meanwhile because clerics pick their spells and wizards prepare their spells it can be asked both in character and out why they refuse to pray for or prepare a given spell.</p><p></p><p>And again who cares? I don't play D&D to have my hand held and to have my imagination straightjacketed by someone saying "You can only play this in this way". Instead I expect it to support my imagination.</p><p></p><p>Again there's a major difference. It's in part called "level."</p><p></p><p>Most bards of mine are unlikely to take prismatic spray. A rockstar one might. If you don't like the spell and it doesn't fit the bard you are playing don't play it then. Objecting to a spell on the spell list is saying "I don't think I'd want it so no one should ever have it".</p><p></p><p>Partly tradition. Partly because there's a long standing association between music and healing.</p><p></p><p>And partly because why in the name of the little black pig <em>shouldn't</em> it be? If you don't want your bard to heal <em>don't take the spells</em>. Some bards can heal, others can't. Why are you so offended by what other peoples' characters can do.</p><p></p><p>If you want an actual question that causes in game issues then why is every single cleric in D&D able to heal? I have no problem with some faith healers - but every single cleric has Cure Light Wounds and Healing Word on their spell list - and Lesser Restoration at level 3. Why? What makes healing something literally all the Gods agree to give all their empowered servants. This to me is a far deeper question and far bigger worldbuilding problem than why can <em>some</em> bards heal.</p><p></p><p>Yes. I'm saying that's how PHB subclasses work. Except they are slightly subtler than you claim - for example the Druid of the Moon is Druid but MOAR shapeshifting while the Druid of the Land is Druid but MOAR magic. The Berserker's isn't "Barbarian but MOAR Barbarian." It's "Barbarian but MOAR hitty" while the Totem Warrior is "Barbarian but MOAR other stuff". They take one part of the subclass and expand on it.</p><p></p><p>Fine. Go after the wizard. Almost every single one of their subclasses is "Wizard but MOAR magic".</p><p></p><p><strong>There is no problem with focusing on core class features - most classes on their own should be able to support characters without there being twists.</strong> Why are you so keen on policing what other people play and enjoy? If we look at what people play in reality then the College of Lore is the single most popular bard subclass. Yet you want to tear the most popular subclass of bard away.</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]143277[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>For that matter you want to tear the most popular subclass away from almost all the classes. Cleric but moar healy is most popular. Wizard but moar magic is. Fighter doubling down as champion is most popular.</p><p></p><p>Why are you trying to police what people actually want to play and declaring it to be badwrongfun?</p><p></p><p>I don't know you. I just can read what you are arguing for. And what you are arguing for is to nerf the bard (by stripping it of top level spells) and to destroy characters people are playing by taking away options <em>and options that need never come up in play.</em></p><p></p><p>Then talk about fixes. You have offered very little in the way of fixes other than starting the thread declaring that bards should be nerfed, suggesting that types of bard should be taken out of the game, and offering some concrete suggestions and actual mechanics.</p><p></p><p>To want to strip the bards of their most powerful spells and to give them all their spells later is a nerf whether you like it or not.</p><p></p><p>I <em>have</em> read the OP, as I pointed out when you accused me of not having. And you give nothing I'd call an actual example in there - just some very very vague outlines.</p><p></p><p>And in giving those very vague outlines you destroy most existing bards. A bard can <em>already</em> be an excellent support character - something they couldn't be if they didn't have healing magic (which is one of the many things you object to in the post I'm replying to). But there's far far more they can be. And many of those things are because of the spells you are complaining about and because the subclasses you complain are too similar.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 8391411, member: 87792"] Why does it [I]need[/I] to say that? It says what Teleportation Circle does. The PHB inspires. It doesn't treat you like you are a six year old and sit down, holding your hand, and pointing out every single possibility that can be done in explicit detail. I would not [I]want[/I] a PHB that was as absurdly restrictive as you seem to want, letting you only use a class for a few things and no others. Teleportation circle doesn't create a permanent wayport unless you cast the spell every day for a year. Travelling places is well within bardic themes. Bards are quite literally the only class to get all three words of power in 5e (stun, kill, heal). Although to be fair Divine Word is cleric only - but the bard if they want the theme can grab it with Mystical Secrets at level 14. Where there [I]is[/I] a words of power theme it belongs to bards more than any other class. And if you think there should be more truenaming for some bards then the problem isn't that these are on the bard list, it's that there aren't m,ore. And this is getting into why bards and sorcerers both lead to much more interesting and thematic characters than wizards and clerics. When you play a wizard or, worse, a cleric, your magic is ultimately pretty cookie cutter. You simply have access to all the spells both in character and out. On the other hand when playing a sorcerer, bard, warlock, or ranger you define your spell list for this character in specific. If I want a bard who's about true naming and words of creation I can pick spells that fit that theme. If I want an illusionist and mindbender who has nothing to do with words of creation I can pick those. And neither of these choices invalidates the other. What this means is that if you think that a spell doesn't fit your personal bard [I]no one is forcing you to pick it either in character or out.[/I] So its presence on the spell list isn't a problem unless you like policing other peoples' characters and telling them that they are having BadWrongFun Meanwhile because clerics pick their spells and wizards prepare their spells it can be asked both in character and out why they refuse to pray for or prepare a given spell. And again who cares? I don't play D&D to have my hand held and to have my imagination straightjacketed by someone saying "You can only play this in this way". Instead I expect it to support my imagination. Again there's a major difference. It's in part called "level." Most bards of mine are unlikely to take prismatic spray. A rockstar one might. If you don't like the spell and it doesn't fit the bard you are playing don't play it then. Objecting to a spell on the spell list is saying "I don't think I'd want it so no one should ever have it". Partly tradition. Partly because there's a long standing association between music and healing. And partly because why in the name of the little black pig [I]shouldn't[/I] it be? If you don't want your bard to heal [I]don't take the spells[/I]. Some bards can heal, others can't. Why are you so offended by what other peoples' characters can do. If you want an actual question that causes in game issues then why is every single cleric in D&D able to heal? I have no problem with some faith healers - but every single cleric has Cure Light Wounds and Healing Word on their spell list - and Lesser Restoration at level 3. Why? What makes healing something literally all the Gods agree to give all their empowered servants. This to me is a far deeper question and far bigger worldbuilding problem than why can [I]some[/I] bards heal. Yes. I'm saying that's how PHB subclasses work. Except they are slightly subtler than you claim - for example the Druid of the Moon is Druid but MOAR shapeshifting while the Druid of the Land is Druid but MOAR magic. The Berserker's isn't "Barbarian but MOAR Barbarian." It's "Barbarian but MOAR hitty" while the Totem Warrior is "Barbarian but MOAR other stuff". They take one part of the subclass and expand on it. Fine. Go after the wizard. Almost every single one of their subclasses is "Wizard but MOAR magic". [B]There is no problem with focusing on core class features - most classes on their own should be able to support characters without there being twists.[/B] Why are you so keen on policing what other people play and enjoy? If we look at what people play in reality then the College of Lore is the single most popular bard subclass. Yet you want to tear the most popular subclass of bard away. [ATTACH type="full"]143277[/ATTACH] For that matter you want to tear the most popular subclass away from almost all the classes. Cleric but moar healy is most popular. Wizard but moar magic is. Fighter doubling down as champion is most popular. Why are you trying to police what people actually want to play and declaring it to be badwrongfun? I don't know you. I just can read what you are arguing for. And what you are arguing for is to nerf the bard (by stripping it of top level spells) and to destroy characters people are playing by taking away options [I]and options that need never come up in play.[/I] Then talk about fixes. You have offered very little in the way of fixes other than starting the thread declaring that bards should be nerfed, suggesting that types of bard should be taken out of the game, and offering some concrete suggestions and actual mechanics. To want to strip the bards of their most powerful spells and to give them all their spells later is a nerf whether you like it or not. I [I]have[/I] read the OP, as I pointed out when you accused me of not having. And you give nothing I'd call an actual example in there - just some very very vague outlines. And in giving those very vague outlines you destroy most existing bards. A bard can [I]already[/I] be an excellent support character - something they couldn't be if they didn't have healing magic (which is one of the many things you object to in the post I'm replying to). But there's far far more they can be. And many of those things are because of the spells you are complaining about and because the subclasses you complain are too similar. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Bards Should Be Half-Casters in 5.5e/6e
Top