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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Apok" data-source="post: 587803" data-attributes="member: 1969">They do indeed, but in order to use them effectively they better not be wearing any armor.  Magical items and Mage Armor can help with this, but the former are expensive and without taking a PrC, the Bard is unlikely to have the AC to hold his own in a stand-up fight.  Clerics, as I've said, don't have this problem since they can wear super-enchanted heavy armor with a shield.  Also, I find that the quality of a Clerics buff spells outstrips those of a Bard of equivalent level, especially for enhancing their own combat prowess.  They do have a larger weapon selection, I'll grant.  Regarding sneak attacks, any Rogue worth his salt is going to find ways to get his sneak attack damage as often as possible.  Grab Spring Attack, double team it with a Monk or Fighter, use Bluff & Expert Tactician, etc.  A Bard just can't compete with that kind of damage unless you pull some funky multiclassing or are dealing with things that are immune to crits.  Personally, I always assume players are going to min/max at some level.  Why?  Well, why not?  Unless they know the DM is a softie who doesn't like to challange his players, they are going to design their characters to be the best and most efficient at what they do.  Archer-types are going to have lots of cool ranged feats and abilities.  Sneak-Attack monkeys will likely grab Ambi&TWF combined with Quicker than the Eye and Expert Tactician.   Battle Clerics will find a God that allows them to take the Strength and/or Destruction domain and self-buff before combat.  To say that Bards are just as good as Rogues and Clerics in combat as long as the Rogues and Clerics aren't efficiently designed or use their strengths to the best of their abilities is kinda absurd, don't you think?  I'm not trying to pick a fight here, Crothian, but I am seriously not getting your logic on that last statement.  Yes, I know that not all players are going to look for good feat/skill/spell combos that will make their characters work well in combat, but I don't think we should assume that they are the norm.  I'm not even talking about Smackdown! quality stuff here, just some basic tactics and wise character development choices will make Rogues and Clerics better combatants than Bards.</blockquote>

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