base attack and saves

[Beholder Bob]

Changing the basics: at each level, a PC gains a +1/2, +3/4, or +1 step for their base attack. They also gain +1/2 or +1/3 to each of their saves. At the 1st level, for each class, a class starts with 0 + the base attack for progression – but on saves start out with 2 + the base save progression for their good save. A PC who takes multiple classes (say, fighter, barbarian, ranger, paladin – followed by prestige classes, gains obscene bonus save for fortitude (+8) and extremely poor saves for the other 2 (+0). A PC who takes multiple levels in classes with less then +1 progression for base attack (say, bard, wizard, cleric) starts with an extremely unreasonable base attack (+0 with a 3rd level character: 1st, 1st, 1st), and a save of +2 +4 +4.

Proposal: only the very 1st level taken gets the +2 to prime saves – all levels thereafter only get the +1/2 or +1/3 progression. Keep track of fractions. Do the same for base attack. Alternatively, you could limit the save bonus to no more then a single +2 bonus to any save category - but my preference would be not to - except for prestige classes.

Why: so as not to unreasonably punish classes that already have poor base attacks. Keep saves at a more reasonable rate - stopping exceptional highs or lows. The +2 to the prime save is equal to a feat.

 

[DanMcS]

Yep. We know. This is one of the most common house rules, and one of the least contraversial.

 

[Beholder Bob]

Yep. We know. This is one of the most common house rules, and one of the least contraversial.

Well damn! I didn't get the memo. Why didn't I get the memo?

Oh-well, just call me a late bloomer.

 

[DanMcS]

Thing is, this is one of those house rules that actually makes the game work /better/. That's why it's so common, and why so many people come up with it independantly. Gamers are smart, and like to tinker. I was just telling you why you're not going to get many comments on it.

Don't worry about not getting the memo; I think it's about time for the weekly "We should combine MS and HS into one skill called "Stealth"" thread. Heh.

 

[Nifft]

Don't worry about not getting the memo; I think it's about time for the weekly "We should combine MS and HS into one skill called "Stealth"" thread. Heh.

Is this why Monte Cook called his combination of these skills Sneak? Just so we could still argue about something?

-- N

PS: The first poster brings up a very sensible house-rule, though one I've not bothered to implement myself. I'll ask my players about it.

 

[Terath Ninir]

It's a very good house rule, and much easier than substituting combat skills for BAB. I've been working on *that* for a couple months now, and it ain't easy.

Speaking of Stealth -- is substituting "Perception" for Spot and Listen just as common? I'm going to use that for the exact same reasons people use Stealth.

 

[DanMcS]

It's a very good house rule, and much easier than substituting combat skills for BAB. I've been working on *that* for a couple months now, and it ain't easy.

Yep. I gave up on it, it's too much of a pain. It'll have to wait for 4e, probably. Just based on frequency of use, attack and defense are much more useful skills than nearly anything else. You might attack 10 or more times in a single combat, while you might climb a wall once in a session. BAB then is nearly always an optimal use of skill points, people will max it whenever possible, so why bother trying to shoehorn it into the system? The fixed advancement works just as well.

Speaking of Stealth -- is substituting "Perception" for Spot and Listen just as common? I'm going to use that for the exact same reasons people use Stealth.

Yep. I don't think either of them is a good idea. Skill ranks should be about equal in value- a rank in climb should be comparatively equivalent to a rank in jump. And typically, they are, you might climb once a game session, or jump once a game session, and a rank in either at that point is equally valuable.

When skills get to be too valuable is when they're used too often. Like Tumble, which approaches BAB and BDB in usefulness, since in combat, you might use it every round.

By combining skills, you're making them more valuable, they'll be used more often. Spot and Listen as "Perception" is almost a no-brainer to spent points on. Heck, Spot by itself is almost that way now, since it will probably get called for several times in a session. Add Listen to it, and it's an uberskill. Same with MS and HS.

Skill-based games make up for this problem by having more-useful skills cost more points. D&D doesn't have that much granularity yet. You'd need to multiply everyone's skill ranks by 10, then give the skills different costs, like Jump would be 7 points per rank, and Stealth would be 18, and BAB might be 30. Or whatever. But that's a rather different game, or maybe 4e.

Darn it, now I'm participating in the "MS and HS should be Stealth" thread. You're a bad man.

 

[Terath Ninir]

Well, at least you know I'm a man. I hate having to explain over and over that me female avatar and sig are part of my online character.

I can see where you're coming from to an extent. However, even with Hide and Move Silently the way they are, they're still better than Climb and are chosen much more often. Even the fighters, in my experiences, will take one of those skills as a cross-class skill.

In my games, Stealth and Perception are every bit as essential as combat skills. The main reason I'd like to go with the combined skills is to save skill points. Everyone is *going* to take them, even at the expense of essential class skills, so I might as well make them cheaper and increase the chance that the class skills will be taken.

I will grant that my experiences are not the same as other gamers, especially those who are on the hack 'n' slash end. (I'm not denigrating such games; they kick ass when you're in the mood for them. ) But for our games, you might get into combat once in a session, but you're probably going to sneak 6 or 8 times a session. Even the tank warriors.

As always, it depends on your style of play.

 

[Terath Ninir]

Double post. Sorry!