Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="ProfessorCirno" data-source="post: 5463903" data-attributes="member: 65637">But that's the problem - at the end of the day, it's not your fighter who's doing everything, it's the magical buffs supporting you.Strip away the magic.&nbsp; What can your fighter do?But see, I again saw the same thing in the 2e -&gt; 3e change.&nbsp; Nihil novi sub sole.&nbsp; Everyone has skills?&nbsp; Everyone gains feats?&nbsp; Everyone gets iterative attacks?&nbsp; For many, that told them &quot;Everyone is the same.&quot;But when you dive into the powers and see how they work - just as in 3e when you dive into the character abilities - you see the differences.&nbsp; Rogue powers and fighter powers and cleric powers are all radically different.I would be interested in seeing your character or the game to see how it's going, to be honest.You honestly don't need to grasp the ins and outs of various magical effects.&nbsp; Someone who chooses color spray on whim because it sounds cool is going to rock the game at level 1.&nbsp; If they choose another spell and do poorly, they change it.&nbsp; A fighter who chooses Toughness cannot change it.This isn't even really contested - the 3e developers have openly stated that System Mastery was a purposeful part of the game.&nbsp; The difference is that when you do badly at System Mastery as a fighter, you're stuck in it.&nbsp; When you do badly as a wizard, you can change it.&nbsp; There are far more &quot;player traps&quot; in feats then there are in spells.&nbsp; The biggest trap a wizard can make is focusing on damage and evocation.&nbsp; That's it, that's the biggest trap, and honestly potentially the only ones.&nbsp; Bad spell choice?&nbsp; Change it.&nbsp; Bad feats?&nbsp; Wizards are incredibly independent from feat choice.&nbsp; Their only flaw is a bad focus on what their wizard will do - and even then, they're still doing damage and doing something.&nbsp; For the fighter, all he has are feats - and that's where system mastery comes into play the most.&nbsp; Feats are a minefield.The balance problem in 3e isn't with complex spells or combos or CharOps shenanigans.&nbsp; The flaw is that all it takes is for someone to say &quot;Hey druid sounds cool, I'll take natural spell so I can just always be a bear,&quot; and just like that he's a powerhouse.Quite frankly, unless I was using DMG2's respec rules, then my only other recourse is to houserule.&nbsp; By the 3e rules, you have to slam the door.&nbsp; Certainly you can houserule it, but if you have to houserule things, then there's a problem.&nbsp; Again, Monte Cook has openly stated that this was an intentional part of 3e.My feel with 4e is this - in 4e, I can make a character who's useful in combat and has stuff to do outside of combat.&nbsp; In 3e, the only way I could really do that is by making a spellcaster.&nbsp; For me, the non-combat part is the key.&nbsp; In 3e, you have 2+int skills as a fighter - and int ain't your main.&nbsp; You can climb and swim.&nbsp; Or climb and jump.&nbsp; Or swim and jump.&nbsp; That's all your fighter has outside of combat, unless you throw the whole skill system away.For what it's worth, I wasn't referring to you in that statement <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="ProfessorCirno, post: 5463903, member: 65637"] But that's the problem - at the end of the day, it's not your fighter who's doing everything, it's the magical buffs supporting you. Strip away the magic. What can your fighter do? But see, I again saw the same thing in the 2e -> 3e change. Nihil novi sub sole. Everyone has skills? Everyone gains feats? Everyone gets iterative attacks? For many, that told them "Everyone is the same." But when you dive into the powers and see how they work - just as in 3e when you dive into the character abilities - you see the differences. Rogue powers and fighter powers and cleric powers are all radically different. I would be interested in seeing your character or the game to see how it's going, to be honest. You honestly don't need to grasp the ins and outs of various magical effects. Someone who chooses color spray on whim because it sounds cool is going to rock the game at level 1. If they choose another spell and do poorly, they change it. A fighter who chooses Toughness cannot change it. This isn't even really contested - the 3e developers have openly stated that System Mastery was a purposeful part of the game. The difference is that when you do badly at System Mastery as a fighter, [I]you're stuck in it[/I]. When you do badly as a wizard, [I]you can change it[/I]. There are far more "player traps" in feats then there are in spells. The biggest trap a wizard can make is focusing on damage and evocation. That's it, that's the biggest trap, and honestly potentially the only ones. Bad spell choice? Change it. Bad feats? Wizards are incredibly independent from feat choice. Their only flaw is a bad focus on what their wizard will do - and even then, they're still doing damage and doing something. For the fighter, all he has are feats - and that's where system mastery comes into play the most. Feats are a minefield. The balance problem in 3e isn't with complex spells or combos or CharOps shenanigans. The flaw is that all it takes is for someone to say "Hey druid sounds cool, I'll take natural spell so I can just always be a bear," and just like that he's a powerhouse. Quite frankly, unless I was using DMG2's respec rules, then my only other recourse is to houserule. By the 3e rules, you have to slam the door. Certainly you can houserule it, but if you have to houserule things, then there's a problem. Again, Monte Cook has openly stated that this was an intentional part of 3e. My feel with 4e is this - in 4e, I can make a character who's useful in combat [I]and[/I] has stuff to do outside of combat. In 3e, the only way I could really do that is by making a spellcaster. For me, the non-combat part is the key. In 3e, you have 2+int skills as a fighter - and int ain't your main. You can climb and swim. Or climb and jump. Or swim and jump. That's all your fighter has outside of combat, unless you throw the whole skill system away. For what it's worth, I wasn't referring to you in that statement :) [/QUOTE]

Verification