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<blockquote data-quote="Mort" data-source="post: 5463937" data-attributes="member: 762">The complexity is certainly there for the caster - lots and lots of options and interactions. BUT about 80-90% of those options are useful, misfire on a few of them - and your character is still effective and usefull, In and out of combat (especially the mage, the sorcerer suffers some of the identical problems to the fighter).For the fighter, yes there are less feats but the choices are critical - pick the wrong feat at 2nd level and you may be stuck never really having an effective character.Simply put a 15th level wizard designed with any knowledge at all of the spell system (minimal is fine) will be quite effective; a 15th level fighter designed without a very good understanding of feats and feat interactions will quite likely be a total dud by 15th level character standards.Helping them out isn't the issue - it's how much do you have to, that's the real question. My point is a newbie designing a fighter is likely going to need more help than a newbie designing a wizard - as far as effectiveness goes, and that's completely counter intuitive.As for the thread topic - while casters were always powerful, 3e really let go of the reigns. I don't think it's too controversial a statement to say 3e mages are by far the most powerfull of the progression from 1e-forward. 4e yanked on those reigns hard, and while many people dislike 4e independant of this, IMO this contributes quite a bit to the dislike of 4e.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mort, post: 5463937, member: 762"] The complexity is certainly there for the caster - lots and lots of options and interactions. BUT about 80-90% of those options are useful, misfire on a few of them - and your character is still effective and usefull, In and out of combat (especially the mage, the sorcerer suffers some of the identical problems to the fighter). For the fighter, yes there are less feats but the choices are critical - pick the wrong feat at 2nd level and you may be stuck never really having an effective character. Simply put a 15th level wizard designed with any knowledge at all of the spell system (minimal is fine) will be quite effective; a 15th level fighter designed without a very good understanding of feats and feat interactions will quite likely be a total dud by 15th level character standards. Helping them out isn't the issue - it's how much do you have to, that's the real question. My point is a newbie designing a fighter is likely going to need more help than a newbie designing a wizard - as far as effectiveness goes, and that's completely counter intuitive. As for the thread topic - while casters were always powerful, 3e really let go of the reigns. I don't think it's too controversial a statement to say 3e mages are by far the most powerfull of the progression from 1e-forward. 4e yanked on those reigns hard, and while many people dislike 4e independant of this, IMO this contributes quite a bit to the dislike of 4e. [/QUOTE]

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