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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Owen K.C. Stephens" data-source="post: 853326" data-attributes="member: 3190">Hi folks.ECLs are among the trickiest things to figure out. Mrs. Dungeon aster is quite right that the 1/2 ogre in B&B is about the same as the one in Savage Species, but has a higher ECL. In fact, since the SS half-ogre has 2 more points of  natural armor and is size large, it's better than the one in B&B, despite the smaller ECL. If you want to take that as a guideline and decide to lower all the ECLs in B&B by 1 step, I certainly wouldn't decry you as a heretic. Once you've bought the book, I'm happy with whatever use you get out of it.SS wasn't out  when I was working on B&B, and even if it had been I'm not sure I'd have agreed with it. I fall into the camp Cordo mentioned, who feel the SS 1/2-ogre's ECL is too low. For example, picture a 4th level game with a human barbarian and a half-ogre barbarian. If the human barbarian has an 18 Str, weapon focus, and a large +1 greataxe, we can reasonably assume he has an attack bonus of +10 and does 1d12+7 points of damage. The 3rd level half ogre can be assumed to have a 24 Str. Since he has one less feat and needs to do something to increase his AC, let's not give him Weapon Focus or a magic weapon. He can, however, carry a huge masterwork greataxe, with which he has a +10 attack bonus and does 2d8+10 points of damage. Additionally he has 10 ft reach, and thus gets an AoO against most things that try to move up to him, and may be able to hit things without exposing himself to attack. With his higher Con, the half ogre may only be a ½ a hit point behind his human friend, and by next level may have surpassed him.My design theory was that an ECL had to assume the most min/maxed character design to avoid power-creep. A 1st level fighter houri clearly won't survive long in a 6th level game, but playtesting (in a game that's still ongoing) suggests an 11th level houri druid with the Lost Tradition feat does just fine in a 16th level game.When I couldn’t decide between 2 ECLs, I went with the higher of them. Part of this was simple caution (I often worry what happens when rules I write for d20 games mix with the rules someone else writes - the result is almost never a less-powerful character). Part of this was because getting to be a green folk already has a "cool factor" attached to it - such characters should be -at best- on par with more typical characters, not -at least- on par with them. Third, some things are just very hard to slap a value on for ECL. How much is +10 Str worth? What's the value of being able to become diminutive? (Run a game with a trixie spellcaster before you answer that question. A first level trixie wizard with a 20 Dex, and shield has an AC of 26 for 1/2 the field!)Also, I assume there’s a range in race power level as it is. I’m simply not convinced a half elf is on par with either a human or an elf. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean it’s difficult to decide if a given race is on the high end of +1 ECL or the low end of +2.And finally, in my experience players never complain when a GM decides to make something from a sourcebook more powerful, but act like the world has ended if he has to weaken it. I think drnuncheon's suggestion of not playing ECL characters unless the level adjustment is no more than have the character's total levels is a great one, and personally believe the ECLs stand up when used in this way. If you disagree, I heartily encourage you to change them. Things like a campaign's magic level and play style are going to effect what an ECL should be in ways I can't predict, and though I've done my best to do the work for GMs who buy my book, ultimately they know their games and players better than I possibly could.Thanks for being interested enough to discuss B&B and for the great thoughts and ideas!Owen K.C. Stephens</blockquote>

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