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Battle Master vs. Eldritch Knight
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<blockquote data-quote="Xeviat" data-source="post: 6934403" data-attributes="member: 57494"><p>I think the Battle Master is a little too powerful at the start. I think they get too many superiority dice right away. At level 4, they have more superiority dice than Monks have Ki. A monk can use a superiority die to get a chance for (attack roll) +1d4+Dex damage (plus a rider if they're an Open Hand Monk), while the battle master can use a superiority die to get a guaranteed +1d8 damage, plus a rider. Just looking at that makes me unhappy.</p><p></p><p>But, it's often better to compare subclasses within a class. At least it's easier. So lets look at the Battle Master vs the Eldritch Knight.</p><p></p><p>At 3rd level, the Battle Master has 4d8 superiority dice. The Eldritch Knight has 2 level 1 spells per day. Those spells are hard to quantify, they can be used to do a lot of different things. But, what if the Eldritch Knight had the Paladin's smite ability? That would be pretty comparable, so how about we use that for a comparison here.</p><p></p><p>The Battle Master has 4d8 superiority dice, which can be used at their most basic for adding damage and a rider to an attack. There are other things they can do, but so can spells, so we'll consider that comparable. The DMG says to expect 2 short rests per day in a busy adventuring day. That means across the day, the Battle Master will be getting +12d8 damage (54) from their superiority dice, if they go all out for full damage.</p><p></p><p>The Eldritch Knight has 2 spells. If they had smite, they could use each for +2d8 damage (+3d8 against undead; I wouldn't keep that in an arcane smite). That would be +4d8 damage per day (18). At level 4, that would jump up to +6d8 damage (27). No riders. That's still half of what the Battle Master gets.</p><p></p><p>How do they compare across all the levels?</p><p></p><p>[TABLE="width: 500"]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]Level[/TD]</p><p>[TD]Battle Master[/TD]</p><p>[TD]Eldritch Knight[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]3[/TD]</p><p>[TD]12d8 (54)[/TD]</p><p>[TD]4d8 (18)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]4[/TD]</p><p>[TD]12d8 (54)[/TD]</p><p>[TD]6d8 (27)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]5[/TD]</p><p>[TD]12d8 (54)[/TD]</p><p>[TD]6d8 (27)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]6[/TD]</p><p>[TD]12d8 (54)[/TD]</p><p>[TD]6d8 (27)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]7[/TD]</p><p>[TD]15d8 (67.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[TD]14d8 (63)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]8[/TD]</p><p>[TD]15d8 (67.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[TD]14d8 (63)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]9[/TD]</p><p>[TD]15d8 (67.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[TD]14d8 (63)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]10[/TD]</p><p>[TD]15d10 (82.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[TD]17d8 (76.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]11[/TD]</p><p>[TD]15d10 (82.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[TD]17d8 (76.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]12[/TD]</p><p>[TD]15d10 (82.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[TD]17d8 (76.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]13[/TD]</p><p>[TD]15d10 (82.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[TD]25d8 (112.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]14[/TD]</p><p>[TD]15d10 (82.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[TD]25d8 (112.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]15[/TD]</p><p>[TD]18d10-21d10 (99-115.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[TD]25d8 (112.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]16[/TD]</p><p>[TD]18d10-21d10 (99-115.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[TD]29d8 (130.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]17[/TD]</p><p>[TD]18d10-21d10 (99-115.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[TD]29d8 (130.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]18[/TD]</p><p>[TD]18d12-21d12 (117-136.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[TD]29d8 (130.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]19[/TD]</p><p>[TD]18d12-21d12 (117-136.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[TD]34d8 (153)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]20[/TD]</p><p>[TD]18d12-21d12 (117-136.5)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[TD]34d8 (153)</p><p>[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[/TABLE]</p><p></p><p>Interestingly, they're reasonably close between levels 7 and 12. At 6 and below, the EK is quite a ways behind. They end up being reasonably ahead here and there (they're very close at 15 and 18, when the BM gets a boost before the EK, but those benefits are lost when the EK gets their next spell slot).</p><p></p><p>Now, I know that the Eldritch Knight doesn't get the paladin's smite, but they could. 2 levels of paladin would get them smite, but that would cost them their 4th attack.</p><p></p><p>But, the following spell seems perfectly reasonable as a new Wizard Evocation spell:</p><p></p><p><strong><span style="color: #b22222">Arcane Strike</span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #b22222"></span></strong><em>1st-level evocation</em></p><p><em></em><strong>Casting Time: </strong>1 bonus action</p><p><strong>Range: </strong>Self</p><p><strong>Components: </strong>V</p><p><strong>Duration: </strong>Concentration, up to 1 minute </p><p></p><p>The next time you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack during the spell's duration, your weapon surges with arcane power, and the attack deals an extra 2d8 force damage to the target.</p><p><strong>At Higher Level.</strong> When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd elvel or higher, the extra damage dealt by the attack increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 1st.</p><p></p><p>Bladesingers and Eldritch Knights would like that. It wouldn't work with TWFing, but I don't think many Eldritch Knights are built with that in mind.</p><p></p><p>I'm not really sure of what conclusions to draw here. I still think battle masters get too many dice at those low levels. As they're behind the EK in most other places, starting at 2 dice almost seems more fair. I'd be tempted to start them at 1 die, but have the progression spead up to 1 die every 3 levels, rounded up. That would give them the following progression:</p><p></p><p>[TABLE="width: 500"]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]Level[/TD]</p><p>[TD]Core[/TD]</p><p>[TD]Proposed[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]3[/TD]</p><p>[TD]4[/TD]</p><p>[TD]1 (3d8, 13.5; EK has 18)[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]4[/TD]</p><p>[TD]4[/TD]</p><p>[TD]2 (6d8, 27; EK has 27)[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]5[/TD]</p><p>[TD]4[/TD]</p><p>[TD]2 (6d8, 27; EK has 27)[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]6[/TD]</p><p>[TD]4[/TD]</p><p>[TD]2 (6d8, 27; EK has 27)[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]7[/TD]</p><p>[TD]5[/TD]</p><p>[TD]3 (9d8, 40.5; EK has 63)[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]8[/TD]</p><p>[TD]5[/TD]</p><p>[TD]3 (9d8, 40.5; EK has 63)[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]9[/TD]</p><p>[TD]5[/TD]</p><p>[TD]3 (9d8, 40.5; EK has 63)[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]10[/TD]</p><p>[TD]5[/TD]</p><p>[TD]4 (12d10, 66; EK has 76.5)[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]11[/TD]</p><p>[TD]5[/TD]</p><p>[TD]4 (12d10, 66; EK has 76.5)[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]12[/TD]</p><p>[TD]5[/TD]</p><p>[TD]4 (12d10, 66; EK has 76.5)[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]13[/TD]</p><p>[TD]5[/TD]</p><p>[TD]5 (15d10, 82.5; EK has 112.5)[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]14[/TD]</p><p>[TD]5[/TD]</p><p>[TD]5 (15d10, 82.5; EK has 112.5)[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]15[/TD]</p><p>[TD]6-7 (relentless)[/TD]</p><p>[TD]5-6 (15-18d10, 82.5-99; EK has 112.5)[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]16[/TD]</p><p>[TD]6-7[/TD]</p><p>[TD]6-7 (18-21d10, 99-115.5; EK has 130.5)[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]17[/TD]</p><p>[TD]6-7[/TD]</p><p>[TD]6-7 (18-21d10, 99-115.5; EK has 130.5)[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]18[/TD]</p><p>[TD]6-7[/TD]</p><p>[TD]6-7 (18-21d12, 117-136.5; EK has 130.5)[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]19[/TD]</p><p>[TD]6-7[/TD]</p><p>[TD]7-8 (21-24d12, 136.5-156; EK has 136.5)[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[TR]</p><p>[TD]20[/TD]</p><p>[TD]6-7[/TD]</p><p>[TD]7-8 (21-24d12, 136.5-156; EK has 136.5)[/TD]</p><p>[/TR]</p><p>[/TABLE]</p><p></p><p>It's a strict, and large nerf at the lower levels, and it doesn't even out until 13th (falling behind again at 15th), But, it ends up ahead at 19-20, not that that matters. It also has the benefit of likely evening them out with the Champion, who feels terrible to me until 10th level. As it's a blatant nerf, and a sizable one until 10th level, I don't think I'd ever suggest it to my group. I just found it interesting.</p><p></p><p>How have your experiences with the Battlemaster been?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Xeviat, post: 6934403, member: 57494"] I think the Battle Master is a little too powerful at the start. I think they get too many superiority dice right away. At level 4, they have more superiority dice than Monks have Ki. A monk can use a superiority die to get a chance for (attack roll) +1d4+Dex damage (plus a rider if they're an Open Hand Monk), while the battle master can use a superiority die to get a guaranteed +1d8 damage, plus a rider. Just looking at that makes me unhappy. But, it's often better to compare subclasses within a class. At least it's easier. So lets look at the Battle Master vs the Eldritch Knight. At 3rd level, the Battle Master has 4d8 superiority dice. The Eldritch Knight has 2 level 1 spells per day. Those spells are hard to quantify, they can be used to do a lot of different things. But, what if the Eldritch Knight had the Paladin's smite ability? That would be pretty comparable, so how about we use that for a comparison here. The Battle Master has 4d8 superiority dice, which can be used at their most basic for adding damage and a rider to an attack. There are other things they can do, but so can spells, so we'll consider that comparable. The DMG says to expect 2 short rests per day in a busy adventuring day. That means across the day, the Battle Master will be getting +12d8 damage (54) from their superiority dice, if they go all out for full damage. The Eldritch Knight has 2 spells. If they had smite, they could use each for +2d8 damage (+3d8 against undead; I wouldn't keep that in an arcane smite). That would be +4d8 damage per day (18). At level 4, that would jump up to +6d8 damage (27). No riders. That's still half of what the Battle Master gets. How do they compare across all the levels? [TABLE="width: 500"] [TR] [TD]Level[/TD] [TD]Battle Master[/TD] [TD]Eldritch Knight[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]3[/TD] [TD]12d8 (54)[/TD] [TD]4d8 (18) [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]4[/TD] [TD]12d8 (54)[/TD] [TD]6d8 (27) [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]12d8 (54)[/TD] [TD]6d8 (27) [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]6[/TD] [TD]12d8 (54)[/TD] [TD]6d8 (27) [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]7[/TD] [TD]15d8 (67.5) [/TD] [TD]14d8 (63) [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]8[/TD] [TD]15d8 (67.5) [/TD] [TD]14d8 (63) [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]9[/TD] [TD]15d8 (67.5) [/TD] [TD]14d8 (63) [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]10[/TD] [TD]15d10 (82.5) [/TD] [TD]17d8 (76.5) [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]11[/TD] [TD]15d10 (82.5) [/TD] [TD]17d8 (76.5) [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]12[/TD] [TD]15d10 (82.5) [/TD] [TD]17d8 (76.5) [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]13[/TD] [TD]15d10 (82.5) [/TD] [TD]25d8 (112.5) [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]14[/TD] [TD]15d10 (82.5) [/TD] [TD]25d8 (112.5) [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]15[/TD] [TD]18d10-21d10 (99-115.5) [/TD] [TD]25d8 (112.5) [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]16[/TD] [TD]18d10-21d10 (99-115.5) [/TD] [TD]29d8 (130.5) [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]17[/TD] [TD]18d10-21d10 (99-115.5) [/TD] [TD]29d8 (130.5) [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]18[/TD] [TD]18d12-21d12 (117-136.5) [/TD] [TD]29d8 (130.5) [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]19[/TD] [TD]18d12-21d12 (117-136.5) [/TD] [TD]34d8 (153) [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]20[/TD] [TD]18d12-21d12 (117-136.5) [/TD] [TD]34d8 (153) [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Interestingly, they're reasonably close between levels 7 and 12. At 6 and below, the EK is quite a ways behind. They end up being reasonably ahead here and there (they're very close at 15 and 18, when the BM gets a boost before the EK, but those benefits are lost when the EK gets their next spell slot). Now, I know that the Eldritch Knight doesn't get the paladin's smite, but they could. 2 levels of paladin would get them smite, but that would cost them their 4th attack. But, the following spell seems perfectly reasonable as a new Wizard Evocation spell: [B][COLOR=#b22222]Arcane Strike [/COLOR][/B][I]1st-level evocation [/I][B]Casting Time: [/B]1 bonus action [B]Range: [/B]Self [B]Components: [/B]V [B]Duration: [/B]Concentration, up to 1 minute The next time you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack during the spell's duration, your weapon surges with arcane power, and the attack deals an extra 2d8 force damage to the target. [B]At Higher Level.[/B] When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd elvel or higher, the extra damage dealt by the attack increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 1st. Bladesingers and Eldritch Knights would like that. It wouldn't work with TWFing, but I don't think many Eldritch Knights are built with that in mind. I'm not really sure of what conclusions to draw here. I still think battle masters get too many dice at those low levels. As they're behind the EK in most other places, starting at 2 dice almost seems more fair. I'd be tempted to start them at 1 die, but have the progression spead up to 1 die every 3 levels, rounded up. That would give them the following progression: [TABLE="width: 500"] [TR] [TD]Level[/TD] [TD]Core[/TD] [TD]Proposed[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]3[/TD] [TD]4[/TD] [TD]1 (3d8, 13.5; EK has 18)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]4[/TD] [TD]4[/TD] [TD]2 (6d8, 27; EK has 27)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]4[/TD] [TD]2 (6d8, 27; EK has 27)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]6[/TD] [TD]4[/TD] [TD]2 (6d8, 27; EK has 27)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]7[/TD] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]3 (9d8, 40.5; EK has 63)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]8[/TD] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]3 (9d8, 40.5; EK has 63)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]9[/TD] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]3 (9d8, 40.5; EK has 63)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]10[/TD] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]4 (12d10, 66; EK has 76.5)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]11[/TD] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]4 (12d10, 66; EK has 76.5)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]12[/TD] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]4 (12d10, 66; EK has 76.5)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]13[/TD] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]5 (15d10, 82.5; EK has 112.5)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]14[/TD] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]5 (15d10, 82.5; EK has 112.5)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]15[/TD] [TD]6-7 (relentless)[/TD] [TD]5-6 (15-18d10, 82.5-99; EK has 112.5)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]16[/TD] [TD]6-7[/TD] [TD]6-7 (18-21d10, 99-115.5; EK has 130.5)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]17[/TD] [TD]6-7[/TD] [TD]6-7 (18-21d10, 99-115.5; EK has 130.5)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]18[/TD] [TD]6-7[/TD] [TD]6-7 (18-21d12, 117-136.5; EK has 130.5)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]19[/TD] [TD]6-7[/TD] [TD]7-8 (21-24d12, 136.5-156; EK has 136.5)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]20[/TD] [TD]6-7[/TD] [TD]7-8 (21-24d12, 136.5-156; EK has 136.5)[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] It's a strict, and large nerf at the lower levels, and it doesn't even out until 13th (falling behind again at 15th), But, it ends up ahead at 19-20, not that that matters. It also has the benefit of likely evening them out with the Champion, who feels terrible to me until 10th level. As it's a blatant nerf, and a sizable one until 10th level, I don't think I'd ever suggest it to my group. I just found it interesting. How have your experiences with the Battlemaster been? [/QUOTE]
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