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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mengu" data-source="post: 4852000" data-attributes="member: 65726">Assume for a moment that battlerager vigor in it's original form did not exist, and the new form is the first time we are looking at it.Let's try and analyze to see if this is a balanced class feature, compared to other fighter builds, and other defenders.For this example, I'm going to assume a fighter with 16 constitution and improved vigor at 1st level, other stats are irrelevant for this discussion. This character is starting with 31 hit points. And for the sake of argument let's say he doesn't care about the extra damage feature, and is built like a sword and board fighter, wearing scale, using shield and longsword.Lets add in a few more assumptions. In 6 rounds of combat, this fighter:* Attacks with invigorating powers 4 times, hits twice (7 THP each), misses twice (3 THP each).* Attacks with non-invigorating powers 2 times, hits once (3 THP), misses once (0 THP).* He uses no multiple attack powers, gains no attacks of opportunity or combat challenge attacks, no leader granted attacks, and spends no action points.Through the course of the fight, this fighter gained 23 THP's. It's not out of the realm of possibility to think in a difficult fight either the fight would last longer, or an action point would be used, or some other form of free attack would be triggered to bump this number up to 26-30.Considering the fighter is starting with 31 hit points, this feature nearly doubles the number of hit points available to him in an encounter, without spending any healing surges (of which he has plenty). And he has this resource available to him every encounter. The bonus is even more pronounced with a race that gets a con bonus, especially a dwarf.And this happens at the cost of 1 point of attack bonus (which most other non-fighter defenders don't get anyway), a more specific selection of powers (though still not terribly restricting as long as you dedicate an at will and maybe 0-1 encounter powers to it), and possibly a loss of 1 or 2 points of NAD somewhere (which can happen with certain other defender builds as well such as Str/Con warden or Wis/Cha paladin).Does this seem like a fair trade? Or does doubling the hit points available to you for every encounter seem too good to pass up?Granted as you level up, the bonus hit points scale down a bit compared to total hit points, but at 11th level, eyeballing the numbers, it's still a good 50% boost to your hit points, and at 21st level it's around a 30% boost (more if you're a dwarf).I don't want to go raining on anyone's parade, the <s>errata</s> update certainly does tone down the class feature. But if an official battlerager didn't exist, and your first level sword and board fighter player came up to you and said "I'll drop weapon talent, if you grant me 25 temporary hit points after each short or extended rest," what would be your answer? That's about 4 levels of hit points. What's the swordmage in your group who keeps getting beat into a pulp going to think about the fighter standing next to him with the hit points of a character 4 levels higher? This is essentially what the feature allows.I love every other change they made with this update. I can understand the desire to keep battlerager a strong option, but I still don't feel they got it quite right.</blockquote>

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