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<blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 9459315" data-attributes="member: 7006">And here is where I disagree.&nbsp; Improv scenes in my opinion are absolutely &quot;games&quot;.&nbsp; They have rules to follow.&nbsp; They have a &quot;winning condition&quot; so to speak.&nbsp; They even have a randomizer element-- no, it's not dice like a typical RPG, but the randomizer for one performer is the response of another performer.&nbsp; One performer might start a scene and say &quot;Looks like old grandad has passed on...&quot; and instead of then somebody rolling some dice on a chart to determine whether this statement is true and what the results of this statement are, the other performer instead just makes their own choice and throws it at the first performer.&nbsp; From the first performer's perspective they received a randomized result to their action and they have to accept this &quot;randomized&quot; answer given to them and move forward with it.Too many people seem to think that the only way you can have a &quot;game&quot; is via some outside, randomized element that changes what is going on (like dice).&nbsp; But there are plenty of games for which no randomization is necessary-- take Diplomacy for example.&nbsp; No randomization element at all-- it's all based on the negotiation (IE &quot;roleplaying&quot;) of the players at the table and the orders they submit.&nbsp; Diplomacy is a game.&nbsp; Indeed, as much of a &quot;roleplaying game&quot; as any other-- each player is taking on the role of a leader of one of seven nations trying to vie for the control of Europe.&nbsp; It just doesn't have the elements of most RPGs that we all come to think of as being &quot;important&quot; (or for some people, even &quot;required&quot;)-- like dice, or leveling or a Game Master.To me... I don't see a true difference between a comedy troupe doing a 30 minute sketch and the same people playing Fiasco... where one is considered a &quot;game&quot; and the other isn't.&nbsp; Fiasco has a &quot;rulebook&quot; to read, sure... but that rulebook merely is telling the players the format for their improv.&nbsp; But give the improv troupe the rulebook on how to perform The Harold (a very specific, rules-heavy improv performance format) rather than just teaching it to them and you'd be hard pressed to see a difference between the two beyond the specifics of each format.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="DEFCON 1, post: 9459315, member: 7006"] And here is where I disagree. Improv scenes in my opinion are absolutely "games". They have rules to follow. They have a "winning condition" so to speak. They even have a randomizer element-- no, it's not dice like a typical RPG, but the randomizer for one performer is the response of another performer. One performer might start a scene and say "Looks like old grandad has passed on..." and instead of then somebody rolling some dice on a chart to determine whether this statement is true and what the results of this statement are, the other performer instead just makes their own choice and throws it at the first performer. From the first performer's perspective they received a randomized result to their action and they have to accept this "randomized" answer given to them and move forward with it. Too many people seem to think that the only way you can have a "game" is via some outside, randomized element that changes what is going on (like dice). But there are plenty of games for which no randomization is necessary-- take [I]Diplomacy [/I]for example. No randomization element at all-- it's all based on the negotiation (IE "roleplaying") of the players at the table and the orders they submit. [I]Diplomacy[/I] is a game. Indeed, as much of a "roleplaying game" as any other-- each player is taking on the role of a leader of one of seven nations trying to vie for the control of Europe. It just doesn't have the elements of most RPGs that we all come to think of as being "important" (or for some people, even "required")-- like dice, or leveling or a Game Master. To me... I don't see a true difference between a comedy troupe doing a 30 minute sketch and the same people playing [I]Fiasco[/I]... where one is considered a "game" and the other isn't. [I]Fiasco[/I] has a "rulebook" to read, sure... but that rulebook merely is telling the players the format for their improv. But give the improv troupe the rulebook on how to perform [B]The Harold[/B] (a very specific, rules-heavy improv performance format) rather than just teaching it to them and you'd be hard pressed to see a difference between the two beyond the specifics of each format. [/QUOTE]

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