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<blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 9459910" data-attributes="member: 7006">I absolutely understand and agree where you are coming from with your three levels of rules, and do not find fault with the way you have laid them out or assigned things to them as you have.&nbsp; My only quibble over what you have offered up is just the matter of details, many of which will come down to personal interpretation and what each person &quot;feels&quot; like where things should be placed.For an example... you had stated that you can't ignore all the rules in D&amp;D and still say you were playing D&amp;D.&nbsp; Now at that extreme-- not using ANY D&amp;D rules-- certainly means you aren't playing D&amp;D.&nbsp; We can agree to that.&nbsp; But if we play D&amp;D and only ignore some of the rules (which almost all of us do all the time in some form or fashion whenever we house rule something)... how much can we houserule or just make arbitrary decisions on before it stops being D&amp;D?&nbsp; That's a grey area where every single person will have a different line drawn to distinguish when &quot;D&amp;D game&quot; turns into &quot;no longer D&amp;D game&quot;.So that then perhaps brings D&amp;D more in line with the general art of improvisation where even D&amp;D's rules are more guidelines and socially constructed contracts than actual &quot;rules&quot; per se (since as been mentioned, you don't get &quot;penalized&quot; for not using them, other than perhaps getting argued with by other players at the table).&nbsp; Now that being said, I do still agree with you that roleplaying games are further along the rules numberline towards &quot;medium&quot; and general improv is still down by the &quot;soft&quot; end, even if both things can fluctuate and move up and down it depending on the game in question.&nbsp; As you mentioned previously, a game like Fiasco (and other indy RPGs) are actually closer to pure improv performance at the &quot;soft&quot; end than they are to a medium-rules &quot;game&quot; like D&amp;D... which just shows us just how nebulous and fluctuating things can get along the rules numberline.&nbsp; Fiasco is basically nothing more that a long-form improv format you would use for performance like The Harold or The Armando or La Ronde, and yet we'd still call Fiasco a &quot;game&quot;.&nbsp; If for no other reason that we don't do it on our feet in front of an audience, but sitting around a table playing to each other.&nbsp; But you could play The Armando the exact same way with everyone just sitting around a table plus having written down in a book how the format of The Armando goes.&nbsp; Which would basically turn it into a &quot;game&quot; like all these other indy RPGs.Basically what I'm saying is that I do agree that your levels of rules as you put them are useful and correct in a generalized capacity... but that I don't think any of us can state with any concreteness exactly where things fall in an absolute sense.&nbsp; Because the gap between &quot;Medium rules&quot; and &quot;Soft rules&quot; with relation to how the various types of roleplaying/improvisation/gaming falls will be different depending on who you talk to.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="DEFCON 1, post: 9459910, member: 7006"] I absolutely understand and agree where you are coming from with your three levels of rules, and do not find fault with the way you have laid them out or assigned things to them as you have. My only quibble over what you have offered up is just the matter of details, many of which will come down to personal interpretation and what each person "feels" like where things should be placed. For an example... you had stated that you can't ignore all the rules in D&D and still say you were playing D&D. Now at that extreme-- not using ANY D&D rules-- certainly means you aren't playing D&D. We can agree to that. But if we play D&D and only ignore [I]some[/I] of the rules (which almost all of us do all the time in some form or fashion whenever we house rule something)... how much can we houserule or just make arbitrary decisions on before it stops being D&D? That's a grey area where every single person will have a different line drawn to distinguish when "D&D game" turns into "no longer D&D game". So that then perhaps brings D&D more in line with the general art of improvisation where even D&D's rules are more guidelines and socially constructed contracts than actual "rules" per se (since as been mentioned, you don't get "penalized" for not using them, other than perhaps getting argued with by other players at the table). Now that being said, I do still agree with you that roleplaying games are further along the rules numberline towards "medium" and general improv is still down by the "soft" end, even if both things can fluctuate and move up and down it depending on the game in question. As you mentioned previously, a game like [I]Fiasco[/I] (and other indy RPGs) are actually closer to pure improv performance at the "soft" end than they are to a medium-rules "game" like D&D... which just shows us just how nebulous and fluctuating things can get along the rules numberline. [I]Fiasco[/I] is basically nothing more that a long-form improv format you would use for performance like The Harold or The Armando or La Ronde, and yet we'd still call [I]Fiasco[/I] a "game". If for no other reason that we don't do it on our feet in front of an audience, but sitting around a table playing to each other. But you could play The Armando the exact same way with everyone just sitting around a table plus having written down in a book how the format of The Armando goes. Which would basically turn it into a "game" like all these other indy RPGs. Basically what I'm saying is that I do agree that your levels of rules as you put them are useful and correct in a generalized capacity... but that I don't think any of us can state with any concreteness exactly where things fall in an absolute sense. Because the gap between "Medium rules" and "Soft rules" with relation to how the various types of roleplaying/improvisation/gaming falls will be different depending on who you talk to. [/QUOTE]

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