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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6323075" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>Um... this is sarcasm?</p><p></p><p>And far and away the best playtested RPG ever has been Brown Box D&D. Gygax wasn't a particularly good designer (as anyone who's ever read Cyborg Commando or Dangerous Journeys: Mythus would know) - but he was playing oD&D almost as much as was humanly possibly with a group of hardcore wargamers who were playing to win. There has been no development process like it in the history of RPGs.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure they nailed it - nails in the coffin of any semblance of balance. They quite literally tore out almost all the restrictions on the spellcasters, shattered the saving throw mechanics, stripped the fighters power away (have you ever seen what a 2E fighter can do?), took away the fighter's army that was given to them to make up for the wizard's escalating magic, and then without thinking of the effects turned the game from a 10 level game with really high level spells being plot devices into a 20 level game where the wizards could cast plot devices and the fighter had <em>less</em> power beyond the reach of his sword than in previous editions - and dropped from the best saving throws in the game to one of the worst.</p><p></p><p>Calling 3.X universally functional isn't true. People enjoy it for what it is - but it <em>certainly</em> isn't universally functional.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>On the revision they also broke druids. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The problem isn't "infinite diversity in infinite combinations of the spell system". It's that the saving throw system is simply non-functional, making Save or Suck spells the <em>easiest</em> to get through the defences - and to end combats. The problem is therefore that the entire offensive magic system is broken out of the box. And the utility magic system makes spells pointless.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I for one think I do. And there are games worse out there than 3.X. A lot of them.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>oD&D was the most bullet proofed RPG in history. The language was ... Gygaxian and it was geared to a certain mode of play. But if we're talking about the original ideas, oD&D is very solid.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Also as a player the scope of your character's knowledge that isn't directly being communicated to you is <em>vast</em>. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Rules should first be tested being run straight with as little DM interference as possible. To not do this would be like selling a car that doesn't work without the driver first opening the hood and rewiring it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So. An archwizard who's spat in Lolth's eye places their hand against a wrought iron door that a strong farmboy couldn't open, utters a mystic word, and it shatters. A feeble but very skilled monk who's stolen teeth out of the mouth of a Purple Wyrm looks at the door, narrows their eyes, and taps it to set up resonance before the door shatters easily. And you consider these examples a bad thing?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The problem that people got better at fighting as they got higher level?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is a straight up fabrication. You have at will magic for all mages - but not for fighters or thieves. I fail to see how the presence or absence of at will magic simulates basic things in <em>either</em> direction.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No you haven't. You've got people who actually behave as they do in the real world rather than having hit points as an on/off switch. If you are down healing surges you aren't fully healed. If you want to see healing surges being spent go watch a boxing match.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You've got minions who are <em>utterly outclassed</em>. Whose combat numbers are barely worth worrying about when facing professionals. So they get simplified.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And now you are contradicting yourself. If you are making the claim that everyone has self healing then you can not at the same time be making the claim that starting characters have hit points in three digits. They only have hit points in three digits <em>if you count the hit points from healing surges.</em> If you do that then you have no self-healing at all for most PCs. Make up your mind which it is. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Given that most of them are false, this is irrelevant. If you come up with a list of false statements then you can invent whatever forms of world breaking you like.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Utter nonsense. There is no such thing as a balanced character on an island. Balance is all about how they compare to each other. But I'm not sure where you get the idea that there are no balanced creatures in 4e.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"Less inflationary"? In 3e power level doubles every two levels. In 4e power level doubles every four levels. In 3E a second level PC can easily have twice the hit points of a first level character. In 4E they are likely to have 25% more hit points than a first level character. In 3E <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm" target="_blank">a level 20 brute monster</a> can have +57 to hit with their primary attack bonus but an AC of only 35. 3.X is the most inflationary version of D&D that there has ever been.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And if your definition of balance is "the game accurately tells you the level of difficulty" then your argument goes away. And the 3.X challenge system is shown to be not fit for purpose.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Or perhaps bar fights don't involve edged weapons with people trying to kill each other. 4e minions spend time hoping that professional armed to the teeth killers don't slaughter them because they normally know how badly outclassed they are.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6323075, member: 87792"] Um... this is sarcasm? And far and away the best playtested RPG ever has been Brown Box D&D. Gygax wasn't a particularly good designer (as anyone who's ever read Cyborg Commando or Dangerous Journeys: Mythus would know) - but he was playing oD&D almost as much as was humanly possibly with a group of hardcore wargamers who were playing to win. There has been no development process like it in the history of RPGs. Sure they nailed it - nails in the coffin of any semblance of balance. They quite literally tore out almost all the restrictions on the spellcasters, shattered the saving throw mechanics, stripped the fighters power away (have you ever seen what a 2E fighter can do?), took away the fighter's army that was given to them to make up for the wizard's escalating magic, and then without thinking of the effects turned the game from a 10 level game with really high level spells being plot devices into a 20 level game where the wizards could cast plot devices and the fighter had [I]less[/I] power beyond the reach of his sword than in previous editions - and dropped from the best saving throws in the game to one of the worst. Calling 3.X universally functional isn't true. People enjoy it for what it is - but it [I]certainly[/I] isn't universally functional. On the revision they also broke druids. The problem isn't "infinite diversity in infinite combinations of the spell system". It's that the saving throw system is simply non-functional, making Save or Suck spells the [I]easiest[/I] to get through the defences - and to end combats. The problem is therefore that the entire offensive magic system is broken out of the box. And the utility magic system makes spells pointless. I for one think I do. And there are games worse out there than 3.X. A lot of them. oD&D was the most bullet proofed RPG in history. The language was ... Gygaxian and it was geared to a certain mode of play. But if we're talking about the original ideas, oD&D is very solid. Also as a player the scope of your character's knowledge that isn't directly being communicated to you is [I]vast[/I]. Rules should first be tested being run straight with as little DM interference as possible. To not do this would be like selling a car that doesn't work without the driver first opening the hood and rewiring it. So. An archwizard who's spat in Lolth's eye places their hand against a wrought iron door that a strong farmboy couldn't open, utters a mystic word, and it shatters. A feeble but very skilled monk who's stolen teeth out of the mouth of a Purple Wyrm looks at the door, narrows their eyes, and taps it to set up resonance before the door shatters easily. And you consider these examples a bad thing? The problem that people got better at fighting as they got higher level? This is a straight up fabrication. You have at will magic for all mages - but not for fighters or thieves. I fail to see how the presence or absence of at will magic simulates basic things in [I]either[/I] direction. No you haven't. You've got people who actually behave as they do in the real world rather than having hit points as an on/off switch. If you are down healing surges you aren't fully healed. If you want to see healing surges being spent go watch a boxing match. You've got minions who are [I]utterly outclassed[/I]. Whose combat numbers are barely worth worrying about when facing professionals. So they get simplified. And now you are contradicting yourself. If you are making the claim that everyone has self healing then you can not at the same time be making the claim that starting characters have hit points in three digits. They only have hit points in three digits [I]if you count the hit points from healing surges.[/I] If you do that then you have no self-healing at all for most PCs. Make up your mind which it is. Given that most of them are false, this is irrelevant. If you come up with a list of false statements then you can invent whatever forms of world breaking you like. Utter nonsense. There is no such thing as a balanced character on an island. Balance is all about how they compare to each other. But I'm not sure where you get the idea that there are no balanced creatures in 4e. "Less inflationary"? In 3e power level doubles every two levels. In 4e power level doubles every four levels. In 3E a second level PC can easily have twice the hit points of a first level character. In 4E they are likely to have 25% more hit points than a first level character. In 3E [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm"]a level 20 brute monster[/URL] can have +57 to hit with their primary attack bonus but an AC of only 35. 3.X is the most inflationary version of D&D that there has ever been. And if your definition of balance is "the game accurately tells you the level of difficulty" then your argument goes away. And the 3.X challenge system is shown to be not fit for purpose. Or perhaps bar fights don't involve edged weapons with people trying to kill each other. 4e minions spend time hoping that professional armed to the teeth killers don't slaughter them because they normally know how badly outclassed they are. [/QUOTE]
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