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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6324268" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Yup.&nbsp; Absolutely.&nbsp; And as you note below:When I run a gamist dungeon crawl or a wilderness excursion through a haunted forest (etc) with a home base village/town/city to resupply/rest/sell, &quot;living, breathing world&quot; isn't what I'm after.&nbsp; There will be enough pomp and circumstance in my presentation of the people and places that folks will be entertained, but little more than that.&nbsp; What needs to be established pre-play are the challenge components (that you mention and Pulsipher/Gygax mention) as the challenge is the entire point of play.What we're running up against here (as you know and I'm sure everyone else does), is a different beast of an agenda entirely.My original introduction to D&amp;D was of the Gygaxian and Pulsipherian variety.&nbsp; This occurred in 1984.&nbsp; I ran D&amp;D games like that for several years until I ran into a group of folks that told me I was doing it wrong.&nbsp; That was around 92,&nbsp; right around the time of CoC 5e, VtM, and a few years after AD&amp;D 2e.&nbsp; They mostly enjoyed the former two but played the latter as well.&nbsp; I learned the (illusionism) techniques and GMing principles required to run games for them to their taste but I never enjoyed it (ok, I hated it...I could do it well but it wasn't fun).&nbsp; Later I ran D&amp;D games with folks looking for the sort of &quot;Kick in the Door&quot; (but not up to the task compared to old school D&amp;D) and &quot;The Right to Dream&quot; sandboxing fusion that 3e D&amp;D aimed at delivering (at least according to its DMG).I want to say the &quot;living, breathing world&quot; stuff as the centerpiece for play was the 92 group.&nbsp; The &quot;illusionism&quot; definitely was.&nbsp; I played and ran Classic Traveller alongside 1e in those 84ish years.&nbsp; I never played GURPS, but it was released in 86ish.&nbsp; My guess is that a lot of the culture of the &quot;living, breathing world made manifest only through ardent process sim&quot; spawned from GURPS while CoC, VtM, and AD&amp;D 2e ushered in the &quot;illusionism&quot; culture.&nbsp; I think 3e's culture, system, and GMing principles was spawned from the synthesis of the prior two with a(n incoherent) nod toward classic Gygaxian/Pulsipherian play (that didn't really pass muster).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 6324268, member: 6696971"] Yup. Absolutely. And as you note below: When I run a gamist dungeon crawl or a wilderness excursion through a haunted forest (etc) with a home base village/town/city to resupply/rest/sell, "living, breathing world" isn't what I'm after. There will be enough pomp and circumstance in my presentation of the people and places that folks will be entertained, but little more than that. What needs to be established pre-play are the challenge components (that you mention and Pulsipher/Gygax mention) as the challenge is the entire point of play. What we're running up against here (as you know and I'm sure everyone else does), is a different beast of an agenda entirely. My original introduction to D&D was of the Gygaxian and Pulsipherian variety. This occurred in 1984. I ran D&D games like that for several years until I ran into a group of folks that told me I was doing it wrong. That was around 92, right around the time of CoC 5e, VtM, and a few years after AD&D 2e. They mostly enjoyed the former two but played the latter as well. I learned the (illusionism) techniques and GMing principles required to run games for them to their taste but I never enjoyed it (ok, I hated it...I could do it well but it wasn't fun). Later I ran D&D games with folks looking for the sort of "Kick in the Door" (but not up to the task compared to old school D&D) and "The Right to Dream" sandboxing fusion that 3e D&D aimed at delivering (at least according to its DMG). I want to say the "living, breathing world" stuff as the centerpiece for play was the 92 group. The "illusionism" definitely was. I played and ran Classic Traveller alongside 1e in those 84ish years. I never played GURPS, but it was released in 86ish. My guess is that a lot of the culture of the "living, breathing world made manifest only through ardent process sim" spawned from GURPS while CoC, VtM, and AD&D 2e ushered in the "illusionism" culture. I think 3e's culture, system, and GMing principles was spawned from the synthesis of the prior two with a(n incoherent) nod toward classic Gygaxian/Pulsipherian play (that didn't really pass muster). [/QUOTE]

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