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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6324276" data-attributes="member: 22779">Mathematicians and physicists have a similar problem in that physicists try to reify abstractions.  Math can state that X and Y are both true.  But that doesn't mean that whatever X and Y are actually exists in the real world.  Unfortunately, there are a number of times when physicists insist that because the math is true, therefore something must exist.We see the same issue in RPG's.  The mechanics are abstractions.  They aren't real.  At best, they're a convenient shorthand for modelling the resolution of an action, but, they are never that action itself.  Let's go back to hit points for a second.  While we disagree what HP are, I think we can all agree that HP measure how hard it is to kill something.  But, that's just an abstraction.  We don't have to use HP to measure that and many games don't.  If we reify HP, then the question has to be asked, what is a HP?  The thing is, because it's an abstraction, what a HP actually is is whatever it needs to be at the moment.  The idea of large numbers of HP means that the character can turn a serious blow to a minor one.  At least, that's one interpretation.  But, then, why does a dinosaur have 36 HD and 120 HP? It's not turning serious blows.  It's not dodging.  But, it does make sense to have buckets of HP.  Trying to kill something that's the size of a bus with your lumpy metal thing plus 1 is going to take a while.  (See the excellent short story, A Gun for Dinosaur for an excellent way to handle this)OTOH, you have small creatures with buckets of HP.  A halfling barbarian can have the same HP as that dinosaur.  So, obviously, the halfling is doing lots of dodging.  Because it's pretty obvious that my 3 foot tall halfling isn't going to take a while lot of punishment, he's just not big enough.And that's where the reification of the abstraction breaks down.  What is a HP?  Well, a HP is whatever we need it to be depending on who's being hit, and who's doing the hitting.  The idea that we have to have any sort of direct correlation between the abstraction and the effect that's being modelled breaks down under even a cursory examination.  Gygax realised that back in the 70's and commented on it in the DMG.  So, when people try claiming that 4e is somehow very different, it begs the question, how is it different?  The game has never actually supported the idea that there is a direct correlation between mechanics and what actually happens in the game.  Trying to do so means that you really, really have to put some big blinders on and ignore all sorts of things.  Which leads to all sorts of frustration when trying to discuss this.  Bill91 talks about how 4e was so different that what came before.  But, when you start talking specifics, all the examples fall apart.  At least when it comes to the sim approach taken by gamers.I can totally see hating AEDU.  That's fine.  It's a very different play thing that hasn't been seen before in D&D.  But AEDU, or minions, or fast healing, isn't a sim issue.  That's not the problem here.  Because sim has never, ever been part of D&D.  It's only been since the release of 4e that I ever even heard anyone seriously talk about D&D as a sim game.  Any sim based player I ever talked to would laugh themselves silly if someone seriously tried to point to D&D (any edition) as a sim game.  There's a REASON GURPS and other games exist.  It's because people who actually wanted to play sim games wouldn't touch D&D.I really see this as people trying to justify their dislike in some sort of concrete terms instead of just saying, "I don't like it."  You don't need a because.  Honest you don't.  You don't have to justify why you don't like it in terms of how it isn't playing up to some play style that the game has never, ever actually supported.</blockquote>

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