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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6324366" data-attributes="member: 42582">That's a good example of what I was talking about.In my own game I've never done the full solo to minion transition, but with hobgoblins I've done standard &gt; minion &gt; swarm, as the PCs levelled and took on more and more of the hobgoblin army at once.You don't think it's relevant that in the example, the PCs have risen from 1st to 11th level?In terms of the actual fiction, 5e is meant to play out in much the same way - 1st level PCs will have trouble with individual creatures whereas at 11th level they'll be cutting through the same creature like butter. It's just that bounded accuracy is an alternative mechanical framework from the 4e one, of simultaneously tweaking role and level.I don't get this, for the same reason as the poster you're replying to.Here are the base stats for a 16th level minion and an 8th level standard (which are XP equivalents):[code]Level:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 8 standard&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 16 minionHp:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 90-ish&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1 (but immune to damage on a miss)AC:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 22&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 30F/R/W:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 28 To hit:&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +13&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +21Damage:&nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 12[/code]At 11th level, the PCs will have to hit bonuses vs AC of around +16, and AC of around 25.So the typical minion will take around 3 attacks to drop (roll needed of 14+), and will hit .85 of the time, for expected total damage output of a smidgeon more than 29 hp.The typical standard will take around 4 attacks to drop (roll needed of 6+, and there will be AoEs and dailies dealing damage on a miss!).&nbsp; It will hit a bit less than half the time (roll needed of 12+) for expected total damage output of a smidgeon less than 29 hp.In other words, framing the combat in terms of higher level minions rather than lower level standards is not &quot;putting the ball on the T&quot;. It is choosing a mechanical framing that will make the game run more smoothly - in this particular instance, it saves the GM having to track hit point totals on 200 creatures, by shifting their defensive heft from hit points to AC and F/R/W - and in the process also shifts their offensive heft from the damage number to the attack bonus.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6324366, member: 42582"] That's a good example of what I was talking about. In my own game I've never done the full solo to minion transition, but with hobgoblins I've done standard > minion > swarm, as the PCs levelled and took on more and more of the hobgoblin army at once. You don't think it's relevant that in the example, the PCs have risen from 1st to 11th level? In terms of the actual fiction, 5e is meant to play out in much the same way - 1st level PCs will have trouble with individual creatures whereas at 11th level they'll be cutting through the same creature like butter. It's just that bounded accuracy is an alternative mechanical framework from the 4e one, of simultaneously tweaking role and level. I don't get this, for the same reason as the poster you're replying to. Here are the base stats for a 16th level minion and an 8th level standard (which are XP equivalents): [code] Level: 8 standard 16 minion Hp: 90-ish 1 (but immune to damage on a miss) AC: 22 30 F/R/W: 20 28 To hit: +13 +21 Damage: 16 12[/code] At 11th level, the PCs will have to hit bonuses vs AC of around +16, and AC of around 25. So the typical minion will take around 3 attacks to drop (roll needed of 14+), and will hit .85 of the time, for expected total damage output of a smidgeon more than 29 hp. The typical standard will take around 4 attacks to drop (roll needed of 6+, and there will be AoEs and dailies dealing damage on a miss!). It will hit a bit less than half the time (roll needed of 12+) for expected total damage output of a smidgeon less than 29 hp. In other words, framing the combat in terms of higher level minions rather than lower level standards is not "putting the ball on the T". It is choosing a mechanical framing that will make the game run more smoothly - in this particular instance, it saves the GM having to track hit point totals on 200 creatures, by shifting their defensive heft from hit points to AC and F/R/W - and in the process also shifts their offensive heft from the damage number to the attack bonus. [/QUOTE]

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