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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lyxen" data-source="post: 8545821" data-attributes="member: 7032025">Look guys, at this stage, my only problem is with people trying very hard to prove that some rules have to apply everywhere, when they are simply not formulated that way. But in the interest of progress, I'll give you an example that I hope will clarify things.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Group of 5 adventurers, all have PP of 12 except the ranger who has 18.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ambushing orcs, they have a lookout who is a scout with good stealth (rolled a 16) and the rest who are rabble, rolled 10, but they are not in sight at all, beyond the ridge overlooking the road.</li> </ul>Now, let's assume that we are using travel rules because the ambush is somewhere between two towns, with the PCs travelling from one to the other. This is travelling, so everyone could be alert, but the ranger has decided to forage instead.What is happening, RAW ?<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">There is a hidden threat, an orc ambush. Does the group notice the ambush ? No, since the ranger is foraging and looking at plants and tracks for game, his PP does not count (and this is the ONLY impact, he is not deprived of his PP, as JC says, it's always on, it's just that, for the travel rules, he does not help the party notice a threat) to notice the orc lookout, and the lookout's stealth is way over the PP of all members of the group. So the group walks into the ambush, the lookout starts the ambush, and all the orcs attack.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">End of travel, start of combat.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">First phase of combat is checking for surprise, who is surprised ?<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The orcs cannot be surprised, the party was making no attempt at stealth travelling along a road, they have a lookout who was giving hand signals to the other orcs, etc.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The party is surprised by the lookout but not by the rest of the orcs, so the lookout has advantage if he attacks, whereas the orcs do not when they come out, since they are obvious when attacking, even from ambush (this is straight up from the stealth rules).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The ranger is not surprised. He is still in the middle of the ambush, but his sixth sense or whatever has warned him and he has, at the last instant, seen the lookout, who does not have advantage on him either.</li> </ul></li> </ul>Now, if the ranger had been alert for danger, he would have noticed the threat of the ambush ahead of the fight, and the fight might not even have occurred. But if the party then decides to attack the orc lookout, there might still be surprise, because the rest of the orcs are just not visible. Fortunately, their stealth roll is low enough that, when the fight start and surprise is looked at, they are clumsy enough to make it so that no-one is surprised.But if they had been a bit better at hiding (let's say with a 14 on their roll), the adventurers (except the ranger) would still have been surprised when they unexpectedly pop up.All clear, consistent with both the travelling rules and the stealth rules and the surprise rules. And note that because passive perception is used, there is no overhead, it's just checking numbers.</blockquote>

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