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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lyxen" data-source="post: 8547474" data-attributes="member: 7032025">Actually no, surprise is NOT covered by these rules, the DM is just sent there if combat erupts. Combat is just one of the cases, for one, and second it's just referred to, without specific comment and or modifiers, just refer to chapter 9.They are not incorporated, they are referred to.Exactly, just assess surprise as usual.Exactly, which implies that it is NOT covered by the travelling rules which, as clearly demonstrated, refers to groups, ESPECIALLY the sentence on Other Activities while travelling.NOTHING in the rules say this. Absolutely nothing. If you think it does, show me where it is, because the rules say nothing of the kind.That is a personal rule of yours, actually the rules say the exact opposite. Everyone gets a passive perception to notice someone trying to hide from them.Wrong, again, if you think that there is such a rule, show it to me. Stealth checks vs. PP are done totally at the DM's discretion (like any check actually).The problem is that you are focussed on only specific situations and inventing rules, but if you want to be convincing, you will have to show them.No, they don't use them. They just say, WHEN COMBAT ERUPTS, check for surprise. Nothing more. You are totally inventing things here.OK, you know what, at this level of ignoring two sentences that are in perfect sequence and using the same words for exactly the same purpose (using PP for noticing, being excluded from noticing), there's nothing more that can be done.I am ignoring nothing in there. Again, where do the rules say that people don't get a normal check for surprise ? I'm still waiting for you to point me out the exact rule that says that surprise is modified. The ONLY thing that is said is that There is no other context. Simply nothing else. Both the rule on noticing hidden threat and the caveat about some people not contributing refer to the group or anyone in the group noticing a hidden threat. It's all about the group. It's in almost every sentence in that section. Here it is, just for you:[ATTACH=full]151929[/ATTACH]The last one is absolutely telling, noticing hidden threats is a GROUP SUCCESS. For christs sake's its' written there in plain english. Do you need to see it closer ?[ATTACH=full]151930[/ATTACH]It's a sum of individual checks, no-one ever said the contrary, but that is ALSO what a group check is, you know ? Did you not know that ? "To make a group ability check, everyone in the group makes the ability check." Ta-da ! A group of individual checks !And I'm not even saying that it's a group check in the sense of the "group check" rule (although it certainly can be if the DM wants it), but the travel rules specify clearly A GROUP'S CHANCE, not an individual's chance !Moreover, once more, this has nothing to do with surprise. Everything here is just about noticing hidden threats. WHEN COMBAT ERUPTS (and only then, whether the threat has been noticed or not), then just go to chapter 9 and apply the rules, some people might be surprised or not as per the combat rules.It seems that you are hung up "group check" as per the rules on "group check". But once more, this is 5e, natural language and all that, and it can be that or just a series of individual checks (which is basically the same, as demonstrated above), but in any case, the result applies to the group, since it's a group's chance of success that is considered in the end. And some people might not be able to contribute, because they can't see the threat at all, or because they are otherwise occupied, but that's all it says. It does NOT say that this replaces individual checks either for stealth or for surprise.</blockquote>

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