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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Swarmkeeper" data-source="post: 8547953" data-attributes="member: 6921763">Slight quibble here:  the Passive Check rules (pg 175) indicate that the passive mechanic "can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster."  We just need a way to compare the passive perception of party members with the stealth of the hidden monster.  What happens next in the situation does not have to be combat - said hidden monster might not even be hostile.  Initiative need not apply.EDIT TO ADD:  Although, now that I'm re-reading, I think I now see where you were going in your first sentence.  Your point was very specific to surprise.  So, actually, yes - if the DM is "comparing passive perception vs. stealth for surprise", you are right - combat is beginning.</blockquote>