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<blockquote data-quote="Swarmkeeper" data-source="post: 8549055" data-attributes="member: 6921763">My thoughts on this:This scenario is most certainly not a &quot;specific circumstance&quot;.&nbsp; The orcs are using stealth from an advantageous position to avoid notice from those watching for danger and won't move until the quarry is close.&nbsp; Isn't that how an ambush works?&nbsp; The very act of moving from their hiding spot determines whether the orcs get the jump on party who is traveling down the road.&nbsp; Not done stealthily enough and some portion of the party is going to be ready for it.It seems to me that you want to exclude this typical ambush example because it perhaps shows the flaw in your interpretation of the traveling/hidden threat/surprise rule intersection.&nbsp; If I understand your typical ruling, most of the time you want Stealth to be rolled twice by any hidden enemies:&nbsp; once to avoid notice by those &quot;watching for danger&quot; when they are within X distance and then once more when combat is about to start to determine surprise (if those &quot;watching for danger&quot; did not notice them initially).&nbsp; It's my position that making the orcs roll twice for stealth is one time too many according to the rules - among other issues, rolling twice has the consequence of nerfing surprise and elevating perception.&nbsp; You argue that this is &quot;more heroic&quot; - but do you apply the same mechanics to the enemies?&nbsp; That would also make the perception of enemies more powerful if the PCs are trying to be stealthy and, therefore, make it harder for the PCs to surprise enemies.&nbsp; Right?Rather than adding &quot;specific circumstance&quot; as an exception to how you read the travelling/hidden threat/surprise rules, doesn't it make sense that there is always just ONE check in a surprise scenario?Asides:Any creature is welcome to try to hide regardless of their stealth bonus.&nbsp; Just as any PC is welcome to try to hide regardless of theirs.&nbsp; Doing something successfully in D&amp;D can sometimes be luck and sometimes be skill and often is a bit of both.The &quot;all the time&quot; part here does resonate with me.&nbsp; Not every creature or group of creatures should be trying to ambush the party.&nbsp; Not every encounter involves hidden threats.&nbsp; Certainly mixing it up is good practice.&nbsp; I don't know about &quot;unfair&quot; though.&nbsp; It's the DM's job to create challenges for the player and their PCs.&nbsp; &quot;Annoying&quot; might be a better word.&nbsp; An entire campaign of enemies trying to ambush the PCs would get old.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Swarmkeeper, post: 8549055, member: 6921763"] My thoughts on this: This scenario is most certainly not a "specific circumstance". The orcs are using stealth from an advantageous position to avoid notice from those watching for danger and won't move until the quarry is close. Isn't that how an ambush works? The very act of moving from their hiding spot determines whether the orcs get the jump on party who is traveling down the road. Not done stealthily enough and some portion of the party is going to be ready for it. It seems to me that you want to exclude this typical ambush example because it perhaps shows the flaw in your interpretation of the traveling/hidden threat/surprise rule intersection. If I understand your typical ruling, most of the time you want Stealth to be rolled twice by any hidden enemies: once to avoid notice by those "watching for danger" when they are within X distance and then once more when combat is about to start to determine surprise (if those "watching for danger" did not notice them initially). It's my position that making the orcs roll twice for stealth is one time too many according to the rules - among other issues, rolling twice has the consequence of nerfing surprise and elevating perception. You argue that this is "more heroic" - but do you apply the same mechanics to the enemies? That would also make the perception of enemies more powerful if the PCs are trying to be stealthy and, therefore, make it harder for the PCs to surprise enemies. Right? Rather than adding "specific circumstance" as an exception to how you read the travelling/hidden threat/surprise rules, doesn't it make sense that there is always just ONE check in a surprise scenario? Asides: Any creature is welcome to try to hide regardless of their stealth bonus. Just as any PC is welcome to try to hide regardless of theirs. Doing something successfully in D&D can sometimes be luck and sometimes be skill and often is a bit of both. The "all the time" part here does resonate with me. Not every creature or group of creatures should be trying to ambush the party. Not every encounter involves hidden threats. Certainly mixing it up is good practice. I don't know about "unfair" though. It's the DM's job to create challenges for the player and their PCs. "Annoying" might be a better word. An entire campaign of enemies trying to ambush the PCs would get old. [/QUOTE]

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