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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Swarmkeeper" data-source="post: 8550095" data-attributes="member: 6921763">Maybe this isn't adding anything new, but it was a helpful exercise for me to tie it all together for my own edification.  When someone is so... passionate... about a rule in a way that is contrary to how I play, it gives me pause to really dig deep to make sure I haven't missed anything..."Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat. The DM might decide that a threat can be noticed only by characters in a particular rank. For example, as the characters are exploring a maze of tunnels, the DM might decide that only those characters in the back rank have a chance to hear or spot a stealthy creature following the group, while characters in the front and middle ranks cannot.""scores" as in: look at all the scores of the party members not just the highest one of those ably Watching for Danger."Anyone in the group" as in: any individual."These characters don't contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group's chance of noticing hidden threats.  However, a character not watching for danger can do one of the following activities instead, or some other activity with the DM's permission.""group's chance" as in:  a character engaged in Other Activities won't uncover the hidden trap or spot the ambush and therefore has no way to alert the group to its presence."a character not watching for danger" as in:  that character is not going to spot that hidden trap on the trail or the ambush in the alley, hence that character is also susceptible to surprise should stealthy enemies be on the prowl."The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.""Any character... that doesn't notice a threat is surprised" as in:  if your character is engaged in Other Activities, they do not notice the threat and... are surprised.Now, that said, it is possible that those characters Watching for Danger might sense the hidden ambush from a distance in which case that loss of a round of combat for those engaged in Other Activities is not going to be as big a deal.  Or, maybe the whole party is sacrificing speed for stealth while traveling, so we have the hidden ambush perhaps not being as aware of the party approaching.  Or, maybe.... etc Seems pretty plain to me how all these rules work together.  No need to change any words.  No need to declare this unfair as long as everyone is playing in good faith.  It is what it is.  Of course, a DM is always free to rule otherwise.  And that's ok, too.</blockquote>

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