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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Olgar Shiverstone" data-source="post: 6372388" data-attributes="member: 5868">I'm with you up until this point -- for combat a beast is really just another attack.  It's a spiritual weapon with hit points and AC; it's a two-weapon fighting combat style (only worse, since you get the extra attack from TWF a level earlier in your progression and it doesn't require an action sacrifice). It's closest to spiritual weapon or a longbow attack in fact, since it can work at range and shift targets and the average attack is about the same in terms of damage (~1d8 base). For that reason, the beastmaster *shouldn't* have to sacrifice the additional attack other combat approaches get.What we should probably be comparing is equivalent attacks.  If you get an extra attack, it's an extra attack.  If you get +1d6 or +1d8 damage to an existing attack, it's more or less the equivalent of getting an additional attack (not exactly the same because of the change in hit probability, but balanced as a more-or-less equivalent tradeoff). +4-5 points of damage to an attack is also the rough equivalent of an additional attack (comparing the average to a damage roll).If the beast's attack becomes a bonus action at 5th, the beastmaster can keep the extra attack and it remains balanced.  As you've proposed it, a TWF hunter gets 3 attacks at 5th due to the TWF bonus action, but the beastmaster only gets two with the same number of actions (the kludge you suggest below to allow a TWF an off-hand attack with the bonus action as well breaks for two reasons: it only works for TWF, penalizing other combat styles, and it's now effectively two bonus actions). As I propose it, at 5th a TWF ranger gets 3 attacks, and a beastmaster ranger gets 3 attacks (regardless of fighting style), each using the same bonus action. If the beastmaster is using the TWF fighting style, he can use only one bonus action -- either a beast attack or off-hand attack -- so he keeps three attacks either way.Your suggestion reduces the beastmaster's effectiveness compared to alternatives, rather than restoring balance. Frankly,  given that TWF Fighting Style provides a full second attack at 2d level, waiting to give the beast's attack via a bonus action at 5th is probably a bit unfair; providing it at 3rd with the Ranger Archetype isn't unbalanced.That's one option but it's pretty weak.  Again compare the beast attack to other options using a bonus action like the TWF off-hand attack (up to 1d6+5, avg 8.5) or the Hunter's Quarry spell (+1d6, avg 3.5)  -- even with a 16 WIS the ranger is still below the average of those options. I'm a fan (as suggested on a prior page) of giving the ranger and beast advantage on their attacks for attacking the same target. It accomplishes a similar result of giving more damage, but in a different way -- by increasing probability of hit rather than just adding damage outright.Which brings us to 11th level. I say retain the beast's extra attack; it restores some damage balance against other options.  At that level, the paladin is doing two attacks with +1d8 each from Improved Divine Smite each in addition to +4d8 to three attacks a day (plus 3 at +3d8 and four at +2d8) from Divine Smite [Base 4 up to 8 attack equivalents per turn]. The rogue is doing +6d6 per sneak attack [7 to 8 attack equivalents per turn, depending on TWF or not].  The fighter has three base attacks with a potential fourth equivalent depending on fighting style (TWF) or archetype (Battle Master superiority dice) [4+ attack equivalents per turn; neglects Action Surge since that's essentially an encounter ability]. The cleric's spiritual weapon can do +3d8 at this level as a bonus attack [That's 4 attack equivalents adding the cleric's base attack action -- or Tempus forbid the cleric's a war priest and gets a bonus attack all the time.]. The Hunter Ranger is getting Volley or Whirlwind attack under many conditions, in addition to the +1d8 per turn he's likely been carrying around since 3rd level for Colossus Slayer (if TWF, he's had four attack equivalents since 5th level!). Four 1d8-base attack equivalents for the beastmaster ranger at this level seems fair.</blockquote>

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