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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7914101" data-attributes="member: 42582">What you describe here won't deliver the sort of play the OP is talking about.There can't be dramatic character arcs if &quot;the story&quot; is already written (by the GM or the module author or whomever) and the GM already knows what is to come.Doubly so if the GM has already decided what that story will be independently of the development by the players of their characters.<a href="http://adept-press.com/wordpress/wp-content/media/setting_dissection.pdf" target="_blank">This essay</a> by Ron Edwards is pretty relevant to what [USER=85870]@innerdude[/USER] is talking about.Here's a salient quote:How this works is pretty simple: the primary pre-play creative work lies in character creation, with setting elements being utilized or even invented strictly to generate conflicts and issues are exemplified by those characters. “Real” setting, or rather, the development of setting that’s genuinely external to the characters, is an emergent property of playing for a while, and it emerges simultaneously with the emergence of plot from the characters’ actions and experiences.This is related to my comment upthread that the notion of &quot;the adventure&quot; has to be dropped. In my personal experience this is more important than particular mechanical bells-and-whistles.There seem to be many assumptions here that are at odds with the sort of play the OP is talking about.Beating the game only makes sense for a certain sort of RPGing, involving a certain range of systems (D&amp;D and T&amp;T most prominently). I don't think those are what [USER=85870]@innerdude[/USER] has in mind.And there also seem to be assumptions about &quot;GM agency&quot; - often also called GM force - which are pretty much orthogonal to what the OP is talking about. In RPGing, you don't get emotionally engaging character arcs by having the GM tell you what happens to your PC. The player needs to be able to impact the fiction. (Whether that is via social, combat or other mechanics seems a secondary matter.)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7914101, member: 42582"] What you describe here won't deliver the sort of play the OP is talking about. There can't be dramatic character arcs if "the story" is already written (by the GM or the module author or whomever) and the GM [I]already knows what is to come[/I]. Doubly so if the GM has already decided what that story will be [I]independently of the development by the players of their characters.[/I] [URL='http://adept-press.com/wordpress/wp-content/media/setting_dissection.pdf']This essay[/URL] by Ron Edwards is pretty relevant to what [USER=85870]@innerdude[/USER] is talking about. Here's a salient quote: [INDENT]How this works is pretty simple: the primary pre-play creative work lies in character creation, with setting elements being utilized or even invented strictly to generate conflicts and issues are exemplified by those characters. “Real” setting, or rather, the development of setting that’s genuinely external to the characters, is an emergent property of playing for a while, and it emerges simultaneously with the emergence of plot from the characters’ actions and experiences.[/INDENT] This is related to my comment upthread that the notion of "the adventure" has to be dropped. In my personal experience this is more important than particular mechanical bells-and-whistles. There seem to be many assumptions here that are at odds with the sort of play the OP is talking about. [I]Beating the game [/I]only makes sense for a certain sort of RPGing, involving a certain range of systems (D&D and T&T most prominently). I don't think those are what [USER=85870]@innerdude[/USER] has in mind. And there also seem to be assumptions about "GM agency" - often also called [I]GM force[/I] - which are pretty much orthogonal to what the OP is talking about. In RPGing, you don't get emotionally engaging character arcs by having the GM tell you what happens to your PC. The player needs to be able to impact the fiction. (Whether that is via social, combat or other mechanics seems a secondary matter.) [/QUOTE]

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