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General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Beginning to Doubt That RPG Play Can Be Substantively "Character-Driven"
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7916518" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I want to build on hawkeyefan's points.</p><p></p><p><strong>First</strong>, a "negative" or contradicting point: <em>pretending to be someone</em> isn't the same as, nor is it a simulation of, <em>being someone</em>. This is true in general, and it is especially true in a RPG, where most of the time most of the players are not using the sorts of techniques that some actors use some of the time to help increase the authenticity of their pretence of being someone who is not them.</p><p></p><p>An argument that is staged or "roleplayed" between a player and a GM doesn't in any real sense simulate an actual argument between actual people.</p><p></p><p>I take this point to be consistent with hawkeyefan's remarks about <em>chosen </em>and <em>non-chosen</em> social responses, though I think it goes further: even where response are chosen (eg I might choose or decline an invitation to go to dinner), I don't think that "roleplaying" that decision-making at the table (eg the GM deciding whether or not a NPC accepts a PC's invitation to dinner) is any sort of simulation of how such an interaction would actually unfold. It's authorship through-and-through.</p><p></p><p><strong>Second</strong>, a "positive" point: essentially unconstrained authorship is not the only way, in the context of a RPG, to produce the fiction of authentic and compelling social interactions. In real life, for instance, some social interactions resolve because one party simply wears the other down. It may be desirable to have this occur from time-to-time in our gameworlds. But it strikes me as obviously undesirable, in the context of a social activity like RPGing, to have participants <em>actually wear one another down</em>. So if we want to produce that sort of fiction, we are going to need other methods.</p><p></p><p>One way is to rely on one participant (player or GM) to decide that a character s/he is controlling is worn down. In a lot of circumstances, it seems to me given me experiences of how RPGing happens, that will be essentially arbitrary.</p><p></p><p>Another way is to use a mechanical resolution method. Depending on what that method is it may also be arbitrary (eg if its a coin toss) though perhaps less exhausting than the first way. But a mechanical resolution method may also be non-arbitrary in the context of the fiction - eg in my Traveller game the method of resolving potentially interminable arguments by way of opposed checks modified by noble status and Leadership skill does not produce outcomes that are arbitrary given the fiction. It produces outcomes that we can easily locate within the fiction - eg that the Leader (Sir Glaxon) got his way, or that on this occasion Baron von Hallucida's attempt to assert the authority of his rank failed.</p><p></p><p>I think my second point can be generalised across quite a wide range of ingame circumstances, especially but not only social ones, but I'll leave that for the moment.</p><p></p><p>I don't think what I've described from my actual play of Traveller itself illustrates <em>character-driven arcs where mechanics are producing changes to the place of the character in the fiction</em> of the sort [USER=85870]@innerdude[/USER] refers to in the OP. It's a bit thin and transitory for that. But I do think it shows how you might start building a mechanical framework to produce what innerdude is looking for.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7916518, member: 42582"] I want to build on hawkeyefan's points. [B]First[/B], a "negative" or contradicting point: [I]pretending to be someone[/I] isn't the same as, nor is it a simulation of, [I]being someone[/I]. This is true in general, and it is especially true in a RPG, where most of the time most of the players are not using the sorts of techniques that some actors use some of the time to help increase the authenticity of their pretence of being someone who is not them. An argument that is staged or "roleplayed" between a player and a GM doesn't in any real sense simulate an actual argument between actual people. I take this point to be consistent with hawkeyefan's remarks about [I]chosen [/I]and [I]non-chosen[/I] social responses, though I think it goes further: even where response are chosen (eg I might choose or decline an invitation to go to dinner), I don't think that "roleplaying" that decision-making at the table (eg the GM deciding whether or not a NPC accepts a PC's invitation to dinner) is any sort of simulation of how such an interaction would actually unfold. It's authorship through-and-through. [B]Second[/B], a "positive" point: essentially unconstrained authorship is not the only way, in the context of a RPG, to produce the fiction of authentic and compelling social interactions. In real life, for instance, some social interactions resolve because one party simply wears the other down. It may be desirable to have this occur from time-to-time in our gameworlds. But it strikes me as obviously undesirable, in the context of a social activity like RPGing, to have participants [I]actually wear one another down[/I]. So if we want to produce that sort of fiction, we are going to need other methods. One way is to rely on one participant (player or GM) to decide that a character s/he is controlling is worn down. In a lot of circumstances, it seems to me given me experiences of how RPGing happens, that will be essentially arbitrary. Another way is to use a mechanical resolution method. Depending on what that method is it may also be arbitrary (eg if its a coin toss) though perhaps less exhausting than the first way. But a mechanical resolution method may also be non-arbitrary in the context of the fiction - eg in my Traveller game the method of resolving potentially interminable arguments by way of opposed checks modified by noble status and Leadership skill does not produce outcomes that are arbitrary given the fiction. It produces outcomes that we can easily locate within the fiction - eg that the Leader (Sir Glaxon) got his way, or that on this occasion Baron von Hallucida's attempt to assert the authority of his rank failed. I think my second point can be generalised across quite a wide range of ingame circumstances, especially but not only social ones, but I'll leave that for the moment. I don't think what I've described from my actual play of Traveller itself illustrates [I]character-driven arcs where mechanics are producing changes to the place of the character in the fiction[/I] of the sort [USER=85870]@innerdude[/USER] refers to in the OP. It's a bit thin and transitory for that. But I do think it shows how you might start building a mechanical framework to produce what innerdude is looking for. [/QUOTE]
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