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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7919636" data-attributes="member: 16814">No prob, get back when you can.I don't think we're on the same page about character arcs, though.&nbsp; I'm not prepared to agree with your summation about character arcs being present even if the player has little to no input vice all or almost all of the input.&nbsp; I think you've noted that we're in a terminology/concept ambiguity, and that's making things difficult to discuss.As for &quot;character-driven&quot; play, as I understand, we're largely in agreement.&nbsp; I think that there can be a small amount of Force and still have good play, though, else GMs could not accidentally put undue pressure on a sitch and Force an outcome through inexperience or inattention.&nbsp; Character-driven play is very intensive in the moment, and if such mistakes are not survivable, then we're in a bad spot!&nbsp; That said, Force should be avoided and play should aim to eliminate it entirely as a matter of principle.On &quot;character arcs&quot;, I'm trying to discuss the means by which a character undergoes change in play that may be surprising to the player -- the character at risk moment.&nbsp; This is what I read the OP as driving for and this is different from how I read your formulation of character arcs above in that it is play that engages the character and allows all involved to find out what that means.&nbsp; This is similar to character-driven, in that the results shouldn't be predetermined but played through, but can exist outside of a character-driven game.&nbsp; I'm not ready to agree that a character arc in the context of the OP can be entirely Forced by the GM and remain what the OP is trying to seek.&nbsp; I also don't think that you must be in a character-driven system/game to find what the OP is trying to seek.&nbsp; I think you can have meaningful, non-Forced character arcs in a game that has Force in other aspects.&nbsp; I don't think reducing character arcs to their fiction counterpart (created by a single author according to their decisions from outside the character) is useful in the context of the thread.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7919636, member: 16814"] No prob, get back when you can. I don't think we're on the same page about character arcs, though. I'm not prepared to agree with your summation about character arcs being present even if the player has little to no input vice all or almost all of the input. I think you've noted that we're in a terminology/concept ambiguity, and that's making things difficult to discuss. As for "character-driven" play, as I understand, we're largely in agreement. I think that there can be a small amount of Force and still have good play, though, else GMs could not accidentally put undue pressure on a sitch and Force an outcome through inexperience or inattention. Character-driven play is very intensive in the moment, and if such mistakes are not survivable, then we're in a bad spot! That said, Force should be avoided and play should aim to eliminate it entirely as a matter of principle. On "character arcs", I'm trying to discuss the means by which a character undergoes change in play that may be surprising to the player -- the character at risk moment. This is what I read the OP as driving for and this is different from how I read your formulation of character arcs above in that it is play that engages the character and allows all involved to find out what that means. This is similar to character-driven, in that the results shouldn't be predetermined but played through, but can exist outside of a character-driven game. I'm not ready to agree that a character arc in the context of the OP can be entirely Forced by the GM and remain what the OP is trying to seek. I also don't think that you must be in a character-driven system/game to find what the OP is trying to seek. I think you can have meaningful, non-Forced character arcs in a game that has Force in other aspects. I don't think reducing character arcs to their fiction counterpart (created by a single author according to their decisions from outside the character) is useful in the context of the thread. [/QUOTE]

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