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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Greg K" data-source="post: 5586610" data-attributes="member: 5038">I disagree. I don't even consider them the same thing.The people I know have always used power gamer to mean someone  whose emphasis is on playing a powerful character or for the accumulation of power.  They don't have to know anything about optimization.  The former can simply be finding 25pt buy unacceptable because characters are "too weak" or MAD.  The latter can be playing for  the gold, magic items acquisition, and experience points, because they lead to greater power. Optimization is building toward a concept and allocate resources  toward  best representing a  concept.  Some players may optimize to meet an initial concept and let the character develop organically from there. Some may want to continue toward a final build that they have in mind.  Like anything it can be taken too far and at its extreme you get min/maxing (CharOPs). (edit: The CharOPs, imo, may or may not involve min-maxing. It can just be taking optimization too far for power gaming).Now, many power gamers may optimize, but optimization let alone min/maxing is not a requirement for being a power gamer.And it is not like optimizing or power gaming are binary.  They fall on individual axis with players having differing degrees of preference. For myself, CharOPs boards crosses way past what I find acceptable for games I run or play in. Nothing against those players personally. They are free to play how they like at their table.  If I am invited, I can always leave, but it is not acceptable when I am running. Furthermore, I can hang with many of  them away from the gaming tables provided we don't talk that aspect of gaming.  I just don't want to game with them and I don't think their style should be catered to by designers, because they are going to find a way to break games anyway.  All that results is more limited and,imo, uninteresting choices out of fear that player will break the math.  Better to tell the GM to watch out for such things and rein it in if it becomes a problem.Or to quote the Roleplayer's Manifesto by GOO.  "Munchkinism and Min-maxing are not problems with the game. They're problems with the player".** Note: I don't consider these the same thing. For myself, the former means cheater and, the latter is only a problem with groups that don't do it or when it otherwise disrupts a table or the GMs fun.</blockquote>

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