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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Staffan" data-source="post: 9369642" data-attributes="member: 907">I'd say that 5e has a number of elements that are superficially similar to 4e but when you look closer you'll see that they really don't do the same thing. Some examples:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Proficiency bonus is kind of similar to scaling everything by level/2 like you did in 4e, except half as big.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Except that in 4e, everything scaled with level, and you got a fixed bonus to things you were supposed to be good at. This means that in 4e, the gap between untrained and proficient (even if it mostly doesn't use those terms) is fixed, while it increases in 5e.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Abilities that recharge on a short rest are kind of similar to encounter powers from 4e.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Except a short rest in 5e is an hour, whereas a 4e encounter power recharges on a 5-minute breather. A 5e short rest is expected every 2-3 encounters, and often requires circumstances to be kind of contrived (because taking a one-hour break in a dungeon is very different from taking a 5-minute break), whereas a 4e short rest is expected after every encounter.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hit dice are similar to healing surges, in that both are daily resources that let you heal up when resting during the course of a day without using magic.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Except that healing surges account for far more potential hp, and recover fully between days instead of just half. Also, the number of healing surges you have mostly remains constant at higher levels, with them becoming individually stronger to remain proportionally relevant. This means that a healing surge as a cost remains a relevant thing at higher levels, whereas a hit die as a cost will become less relevant. You also have the issue that pretty much all healing in 4e uses healing surges, while magical healing in 5e goes above what you get to do with hit dice, plus the knock-on effects of the length of rests above.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5e has rituals, just like 4e.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Except that in 4e, pretty much all non-combat magic was done as rituals, and rituals were open to everyone with the right feat (which some classes got for free) and skills. In 5e, rituals are just an alternate way to cast a small number of spells without expending resources, whereas in 4e they opened up non-combat magic to anyone.</li> </ul></li> </ul>I think those are the main mechanical 4e things that people say got into 5e, but I feel they are all missing the point. Some might also include Passive Perception, but I feel that that's just an extension of 3e's Take 10. There are also some lore things, like the Feywild and Shadowfell.PF2 is a bit different, and more a case of convergent evolution. 3e had some issues. The designers of both 4e and PF2 wanted to fix those issues, and it makes sense that in some cases they'd come up with similar solutions.</blockquote>

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