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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Voadam" data-source="post: 9092981" data-attributes="member: 2209">Yes, even the beefier 3.5 outsiders are still essentially multiclassed bruiser spellcasters. Not as vulnerable as a straight mage spellcaster of the same CR, more magical options and tricks than a straight tanked out melee combatant of the same CR. For the CR system to work they have to be a bit weaker in casting and throw down melee than either the straight casters or the straight bruisers doing those specialties alone. The 3.5 CR 20 pit fiend can throw a meteor swarm once a day and a fireball at will, which is a nice ranged area of effect, but a 10d6 fireball is going to do 35 damage save for 17 (or none for rogues and monks) before any fire resistance, so not that big a deal at CR 20. A CR 20 mage can do multiple meteor swarms and then 8th level spells once they run out. Still, being able to do a meteor swarm, that adds on to their threat so that plus their melee prowess should come out to CR20, which means you expect their melee prowess to be less than something designed just for melee at CR 20.Dragons with their big magic have a bit of the same issue in 3.5.4e took the route of mechanically making monsters focus on their combat role, so either artillery or brute or lurker, etc. with a few signature flavor things for the specific monster type. So essentially not multiclassing outsiders.</blockquote>