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Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9095011" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I've read it. It's highly comparable to the 60-odd pages of spell descriptions in Gygax's AD&D: it sets out character abilities in technical game terms.</p><p></p><p>I posted a whole lot of MM comparisons just upthread.</p><p></p><p>Here are Drow, from the AD&D FF and the 4e MM (purely mechanical information has been elided):</p><p></p><p>[spoiler]<strong>AD&D</strong></p><p>Ages past, when the elvenfolk were but new to the face of the earth, their number was torn by discord and those of better disposition drove from them those of the elves who were selfish and cruel. However constant warfare between the two divisions of elven kind continued, with the goodly ones ever victorious, until those of dark nature were forced to withdraw from the lands under the skies and seek safety in the realm of the underworld. Here, in lightless caverns and endless warrens of twisting passages and caves hung with icicles of stone, the dark elvenfolk - the drow - found both refuge and comfort. Over the centuries they grew strong once again and schooled themselves in arcane arts. And though they were strong enough to face and perhaps defeat their former brethren in battle, the drow no longer desired to walk upon the green lands under the sun and stars. They no longer desired a life in the upper world, being content with the gloomy fairyland beneath the earth that they had made their own. Yet they neither forgave nor forgot, and even now, above all else, they bear enmity for all of their distant kin - elves and faeries - who drove them down beneath the earth and now dwell in the meadows and dells of the bright world. Though they are seldom if ever seen by any human or demi-human, the drow still persist, occasionally entering lower dungeon levels and consorting with other creatures in order to work out their schemes and inflict revenge upon those who inhabit the world above.</p><p></p><p>Regardless of the number of drow appearing, there will always be one of higher level than the main body. Drow males are all at least 2nd level fighters - some are as high as 7th level in fighting ability. Males can also be magic-users, some as high as 12th level. Female drow are also at least 2nd level fighters and some have attained 9th level as fighters. Most drow clerics are female, and no upper limit to their level of ability is known; however no male drow cleric has been known to be higher than 4th level.</p><p></p><p>Drow wear a fine mesh armour of exquisite workmanship. It is made of an alloy of steel containing adamantite. Even the lowliest fighters have in effect +1 chainmail, with higher level drow having +2, +3, +4 or even +5 chainmail. Small bucklers are also used - shields of unusual shape - those drow of greater experience level and importance in drow society having bucklers fashioned of adamantite so as to be +1, +2 or even +3 value.</p><p></p><p>As will be described later, all drow move silently and with graceful speed, even when wearing their black mesh of armour. Each drow</p><p>carries a small amount of personal wealth in a soft leather bag worn around the neck beneath the mail. In addition they arm themselves</p><p>with long dagger and short sword of adamantite alloy (+1 to as high as +3 or even +4 borne by noblefolk); 50% or more carry small crossbows which are held in one hand . . . and shoot darts coated with a poison which renders the victim unconscious . . . A few drow also carry adamantite maces (+1 to +5) and/or small javelins (also poisoned with the same substance as the darts) with atlatls . . .</p><p></p><p>Drow have superior infravision of the 12" range variety and move with silence. The black boots and cloaks that Drow wear are similar to <em>cloaks</em> and <em>boots of elvenkind</em>, except that the wearer has only a 75% chance of surprising enemies or blending into shadows. The material will not cut easily and cloaks have a +6 to saving throws vs. fire attacks; however, any alteration to the cloak has a 75% chance of unraveling the material and making it useless. Drow themselves are only 12%% (1 in 8) likely to be surprised by opponents. Drow are also both intelligent and highly co-ordinated, being able to use either or both hands/arms for attack and defence. They make saving throws versus all forms of magic (clerical included) spells, whether from a caster or from a device, at +2. Drow magic resistance increases by 2% for each level of experience they have gained . . .</p><p></p><p>Because the drow have dwelled so long in the dark labyrinthine places under the surface of the earth, they dislike bright light. They will not</p><p>venture forth into daylight except on the cloudiest, gloomiest days. If within the radius of a <em>light</em> or <em>continual light</em> spell the dark elves are</p><p>90% likely to be seen, they lose 2 from their dexterity and all attacks made by them are at -2 on the 'to hit' roll (+2 on saving rolls against</p><p>such attacks as applicable). If they are attacking targets inside the radius of <em>light</em> or <em>continual light</em> spells, the bright illumination causes them to suffer a 'to hit' penalty of -1 and the converse +1 on saving throws against such attacks is awarded to the target creatures. If bright light exists, it is 75% likely that drow will retire from the situation because of the illumination, unless such a retreat would imperil one of their number, would otherwise be harmful to their desired ends or would expose some important feature to the light-bringing intruders. In any event, such dimmer light sources as torches, lanterns, magic weapons, fire beetle essence or <em>faerie fire</em> do not adversely affect the performance of the dark elves.</p><p></p><p>Drow are able to speak the subterranean trade language common to most intelligent dwellers in the underworld, the common tongue, gnome, elven and their own language in addition to the other tongues which their level of intelligence allows. Many know the languages of the various races which speak and dwell underground. All of the dark elves also have a <em>silent language</em> composed of hand movements, and this means of communication is highly sophisticated, being able to convey much information to a considerable degree of complexity. When drow are within 30' of each other, they use facial and body expression, movement and posture; these latter means of communication alone are capable of conveying considerable information, and when coupled with hand/finger movements the whole is as erudite as any spoken speech.</p><p></p><p>All the dark elves can use the following spells once per day: <em>dancing lights</em>, <em>faerie fire</em>, <em>darkness</em>. Those above 4th level are also able to <em>detect magic</em>, <em>know alignment</em> and <em>levitate</em> once per day. Drow females can, in addition, use the following spells once per day: <em>clairvoyance</em>, <em>detect lie</em>, <em>suggestion</em>, <em>dispel magic</em>. Drow have powers which are the same as those of dwarves with respect to stone and things underground. They also detect hidden or secret doors as elves do.</p><p></p><p>If more than 10 drow are encountered there will be in addition a male who is a fighter/magic-user of at least 3rd level. If more than 20 are</p><p>encountered, there will be a female fighter/cleric of at least 6th level clerical ability in addition to the male fighter/magic-user. If more than 30 drow are encountered, 11-16 will be females, the leader will be a female cleric/fighter of at least 8th/7th ability level, the male fighter/magic-user will be at least of 5th/4th ability level and each will have an assistant of level as previously indicated . . .</p><p></p><p><em>Special Note Regarding Drow Treasure</em>: Cloaks, armor, and weapons made by the Drow have special properties, although they do not radiate magic. The items are made in the strange homeland of the Drow: vast underground cities of carven stone and minerals, places of weird and fantastic beauty inundated with unknown radiations which impart the special properties to their items. When these are exposed to direct sunlight, irreversible decay starts and the items will become totally useless in 2-12 days. If protected from sunlight, they will retain their special properties for 31-50 days before becoming normal items; and if exposed to the radiations of the Drow homeland for a period of 1 week out of every 4 weeks, the items could remain potent indefinitely. Drow sleep poison decays instantly in sunlight, and will lose its effectiveness after 60 days in any event after being exposed to air, although unopened packets of the poison will remain potent for up to one year. . . .</p><p></p><p>Drow are black-skinned and pale-haired. They are slight of build and have long, delicate fingers and toes.</p><p></p><p><strong>4e D&D</strong></p><p>Arrogant and perverse, the drow conspire to subjugate all who don’t revere their Spider Queen, the god Lolth.</p><p></p><p>Like their kin, the elves, drow were once creatures of the Feywild. However, they followed Lolth down a sinister path and now reside in the Underdark of the world. There they gather in settlements of macabre splendor, lit by luminescent flora and magic, and crawling with spiders. . . .</p><p></p><p>Drow raid the surface as well as other Underdark societies for plunder and slaves. They conquer the weak and form tenuous alliances with creatures powerful enough to stand against them. . . Drow live in a matriarchal theocracy with rules and customs strictly enforced by the priests of Lolth. Male drow can’t serve as clergy and are often treated as second-class citizens, but even they exercise power based on their station and the opportunities handed to them. . . .</p><p></p><p>A drow warrior casts <em>darkfire</em> on an enemy, and then attacks the same target with its hand crossbow. It continues to assail foes with crossbow bolts or moves into a flanking position and attacks with its rapier. . . .</p><p></p><p>This drow [Blademaster] faces its enemies head on, using <em>cloud of darkness</em> to thwart attacks. . . .</p><p></p><p>The drow priest imparts the benefits of her <em>Lolth’s authority</em> aura while remaining within 5 squares of her drow and spider allies. . . .</p><p></p><p>Drow patrols often include one or more trained spiders. Drow expeditions, raiding parties, and armies have large numbers of enslaved nondrow among them, as servants and soldiers. Drow also form alliances with devils and demons.[/spoiler]</p><p></p><p>The AD&D information has <em>a lot</em> about the Drow magic items; and a lot about the composition - sex, class and level - of groups of Drow. Beyond that, we learn about their origins in a war with surface High and Grey Elves ("faeries"), about their underground cities ruled by nobles, about their languages (including their silent language), and about their aversion to bright light.</p><p></p><p>The 4e information does not include the magic items, the silent language, or aversion to light,. The information about preferred weaponry is found in the stat blocks (which include sleep poison and a mace for the priest). A full-colour picture shows us a Drow with black skin and white hair. There is more information about sex hierarchies and the role of Lolth worship (including spiders). The history of the sundering of the Elves is not spelled out in as much detail.</p><p></p><p>The phrase "the strange homeland of the Drow: vast underground cities of carven stone and minerals, places of weird and fantastic beauty inundated with unknown radiations" is longer than "settlements of macabre splendor, lit by luminescent flora and magic". I don't think it conveys more information. Whether it is more evocative is probably a subjective matter for each reader.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 9095011, member: 42582"] I've read it. It's highly comparable to the 60-odd pages of spell descriptions in Gygax's AD&D: it sets out character abilities in technical game terms. I posted a whole lot of MM comparisons just upthread. Here are Drow, from the AD&D FF and the 4e MM (purely mechanical information has been elided): [spoiler][b]AD&D[/b] Ages past, when the elvenfolk were but new to the face of the earth, their number was torn by discord and those of better disposition drove from them those of the elves who were selfish and cruel. However constant warfare between the two divisions of elven kind continued, with the goodly ones ever victorious, until those of dark nature were forced to withdraw from the lands under the skies and seek safety in the realm of the underworld. Here, in lightless caverns and endless warrens of twisting passages and caves hung with icicles of stone, the dark elvenfolk - the drow - found both refuge and comfort. Over the centuries they grew strong once again and schooled themselves in arcane arts. And though they were strong enough to face and perhaps defeat their former brethren in battle, the drow no longer desired to walk upon the green lands under the sun and stars. They no longer desired a life in the upper world, being content with the gloomy fairyland beneath the earth that they had made their own. Yet they neither forgave nor forgot, and even now, above all else, they bear enmity for all of their distant kin - elves and faeries - who drove them down beneath the earth and now dwell in the meadows and dells of the bright world. Though they are seldom if ever seen by any human or demi-human, the drow still persist, occasionally entering lower dungeon levels and consorting with other creatures in order to work out their schemes and inflict revenge upon those who inhabit the world above. Regardless of the number of drow appearing, there will always be one of higher level than the main body. Drow males are all at least 2nd level fighters - some are as high as 7th level in fighting ability. Males can also be magic-users, some as high as 12th level. Female drow are also at least 2nd level fighters and some have attained 9th level as fighters. Most drow clerics are female, and no upper limit to their level of ability is known; however no male drow cleric has been known to be higher than 4th level. Drow wear a fine mesh armour of exquisite workmanship. It is made of an alloy of steel containing adamantite. Even the lowliest fighters have in effect +1 chainmail, with higher level drow having +2, +3, +4 or even +5 chainmail. Small bucklers are also used - shields of unusual shape - those drow of greater experience level and importance in drow society having bucklers fashioned of adamantite so as to be +1, +2 or even +3 value. As will be described later, all drow move silently and with graceful speed, even when wearing their black mesh of armour. Each drow carries a small amount of personal wealth in a soft leather bag worn around the neck beneath the mail. In addition they arm themselves with long dagger and short sword of adamantite alloy (+1 to as high as +3 or even +4 borne by noblefolk); 50% or more carry small crossbows which are held in one hand . . . and shoot darts coated with a poison which renders the victim unconscious . . . A few drow also carry adamantite maces (+1 to +5) and/or small javelins (also poisoned with the same substance as the darts) with atlatls . . . Drow have superior infravision of the 12" range variety and move with silence. The black boots and cloaks that Drow wear are similar to [I]cloaks[/I] and [I]boots of elvenkind[/I], except that the wearer has only a 75% chance of surprising enemies or blending into shadows. The material will not cut easily and cloaks have a +6 to saving throws vs. fire attacks; however, any alteration to the cloak has a 75% chance of unraveling the material and making it useless. Drow themselves are only 12%% (1 in 8) likely to be surprised by opponents. Drow are also both intelligent and highly co-ordinated, being able to use either or both hands/arms for attack and defence. They make saving throws versus all forms of magic (clerical included) spells, whether from a caster or from a device, at +2. Drow magic resistance increases by 2% for each level of experience they have gained . . . Because the drow have dwelled so long in the dark labyrinthine places under the surface of the earth, they dislike bright light. They will not venture forth into daylight except on the cloudiest, gloomiest days. If within the radius of a [I]light[/I] or [I]continual light[/I] spell the dark elves are 90% likely to be seen, they lose 2 from their dexterity and all attacks made by them are at -2 on the 'to hit' roll (+2 on saving rolls against such attacks as applicable). If they are attacking targets inside the radius of [I]light[/I] or [I]continual light[/I] spells, the bright illumination causes them to suffer a 'to hit' penalty of -1 and the converse +1 on saving throws against such attacks is awarded to the target creatures. If bright light exists, it is 75% likely that drow will retire from the situation because of the illumination, unless such a retreat would imperil one of their number, would otherwise be harmful to their desired ends or would expose some important feature to the light-bringing intruders. In any event, such dimmer light sources as torches, lanterns, magic weapons, fire beetle essence or [I]faerie fire[/I] do not adversely affect the performance of the dark elves. Drow are able to speak the subterranean trade language common to most intelligent dwellers in the underworld, the common tongue, gnome, elven and their own language in addition to the other tongues which their level of intelligence allows. Many know the languages of the various races which speak and dwell underground. All of the dark elves also have a [I]silent language[/I] composed of hand movements, and this means of communication is highly sophisticated, being able to convey much information to a considerable degree of complexity. When drow are within 30' of each other, they use facial and body expression, movement and posture; these latter means of communication alone are capable of conveying considerable information, and when coupled with hand/finger movements the whole is as erudite as any spoken speech. All the dark elves can use the following spells once per day: [I]dancing lights[/I], [I]faerie fire[/I], [I]darkness[/I]. Those above 4th level are also able to [I]detect magic[/I], [I]know alignment[/I] and [I]levitate[/I] once per day. Drow females can, in addition, use the following spells once per day: [I]clairvoyance[/I], [I]detect lie[/I], [I]suggestion[/I], [I]dispel magic[/I]. Drow have powers which are the same as those of dwarves with respect to stone and things underground. They also detect hidden or secret doors as elves do. If more than 10 drow are encountered there will be in addition a male who is a fighter/magic-user of at least 3rd level. If more than 20 are encountered, there will be a female fighter/cleric of at least 6th level clerical ability in addition to the male fighter/magic-user. If more than 30 drow are encountered, 11-16 will be females, the leader will be a female cleric/fighter of at least 8th/7th ability level, the male fighter/magic-user will be at least of 5th/4th ability level and each will have an assistant of level as previously indicated . . . [I]Special Note Regarding Drow Treasure[/I]: Cloaks, armor, and weapons made by the Drow have special properties, although they do not radiate magic. The items are made in the strange homeland of the Drow: vast underground cities of carven stone and minerals, places of weird and fantastic beauty inundated with unknown radiations which impart the special properties to their items. When these are exposed to direct sunlight, irreversible decay starts and the items will become totally useless in 2-12 days. If protected from sunlight, they will retain their special properties for 31-50 days before becoming normal items; and if exposed to the radiations of the Drow homeland for a period of 1 week out of every 4 weeks, the items could remain potent indefinitely. Drow sleep poison decays instantly in sunlight, and will lose its effectiveness after 60 days in any event after being exposed to air, although unopened packets of the poison will remain potent for up to one year. . . . Drow are black-skinned and pale-haired. They are slight of build and have long, delicate fingers and toes. [b]4e D&D[/b] Arrogant and perverse, the drow conspire to subjugate all who don’t revere their Spider Queen, the god Lolth. Like their kin, the elves, drow were once creatures of the Feywild. However, they followed Lolth down a sinister path and now reside in the Underdark of the world. There they gather in settlements of macabre splendor, lit by luminescent flora and magic, and crawling with spiders. . . . Drow raid the surface as well as other Underdark societies for plunder and slaves. They conquer the weak and form tenuous alliances with creatures powerful enough to stand against them. . . Drow live in a matriarchal theocracy with rules and customs strictly enforced by the priests of Lolth. Male drow can’t serve as clergy and are often treated as second-class citizens, but even they exercise power based on their station and the opportunities handed to them. . . . A drow warrior casts [I]darkfire[/I] on an enemy, and then attacks the same target with its hand crossbow. It continues to assail foes with crossbow bolts or moves into a flanking position and attacks with its rapier. . . . This drow [Blademaster] faces its enemies head on, using [I]cloud of darkness[/I] to thwart attacks. . . . The drow priest imparts the benefits of her [I]Lolth’s authority[/I] aura while remaining within 5 squares of her drow and spider allies. . . . Drow patrols often include one or more trained spiders. Drow expeditions, raiding parties, and armies have large numbers of enslaved nondrow among them, as servants and soldiers. Drow also form alliances with devils and demons.[/spoiler] The AD&D information has [I]a lot[/I] about the Drow magic items; and a lot about the composition - sex, class and level - of groups of Drow. Beyond that, we learn about their origins in a war with surface High and Grey Elves ("faeries"), about their underground cities ruled by nobles, about their languages (including their silent language), and about their aversion to bright light. The 4e information does not include the magic items, the silent language, or aversion to light,. The information about preferred weaponry is found in the stat blocks (which include sleep poison and a mace for the priest). A full-colour picture shows us a Drow with black skin and white hair. There is more information about sex hierarchies and the role of Lolth worship (including spiders). The history of the sundering of the Elves is not spelled out in as much detail. The phrase "the strange homeland of the Drow: vast underground cities of carven stone and minerals, places of weird and fantastic beauty inundated with unknown radiations" is longer than "settlements of macabre splendor, lit by luminescent flora and magic". I don't think it conveys more information. Whether it is more evocative is probably a subjective matter for each reader. [/QUOTE]
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