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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023
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<blockquote data-quote="overgeeked" data-source="post: 9097325" data-attributes="member: 86653"><p>It’s a result of poorly written rules, rules that don’t properly cover the potential actions, and honest misinterpretation of those rules.</p><p></p><p>What happens when people disagree about the rules in a board game or wargame? They argue, read the rules again, and/or table it and roll dice to see which interpretation they will go with for now and look it up later. Happens all the time. To the point where some board games and wargames have that rolling to decide who's right for now as part of the rules, see Warhammer.</p><p></p><p>Two things. One, the mention of authority is key. You only need an authority to make the call. Whether that's a rulebook or the referee sitting at the table or the dice, it doesn't actually matter.</p><p></p><p>Two, importantly, board games are not RPGs. Board games are incredibly limited compared to RPGs. You do not have tactical infinity, the ability to try anything, in a board game. You do in RPGs. So the rules of RPGs are inherently under far more pressure than the rules of a board game. Their boundaries and limits are constantly tested and stretched and broken. Shenanigans is seen as a pillar of play by some.</p><p></p><p>Bad design, yes. But no design for an RPG can be complete if it's trying to cover all the weirdness players will inevitably get up to with specific rules for everything. At least no game with any real mechanical crunch will ever be "complete" in that regard. Fate games are complete because they have a few rules that cover everything. PbtA games are complete because they are thematically focused and only have rules to cover that focus. Things like D&D? Nope. When you can do anything you either need infinite rules (incredibly bad idea and impossible) or you need focused rules that cover what the game is actually about (if that's where you think D&D is, then D&D is only a monster fighting game), or you toss it all and just trust the players at the table and have a good time.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="overgeeked, post: 9097325, member: 86653"] It’s a result of poorly written rules, rules that don’t properly cover the potential actions, and honest misinterpretation of those rules. What happens when people disagree about the rules in a board game or wargame? They argue, read the rules again, and/or table it and roll dice to see which interpretation they will go with for now and look it up later. Happens all the time. To the point where some board games and wargames have that rolling to decide who's right for now as part of the rules, see Warhammer. Two things. One, the mention of authority is key. You only need an authority to make the call. Whether that's a rulebook or the referee sitting at the table or the dice, it doesn't actually matter. Two, importantly, board games are not RPGs. Board games are incredibly limited compared to RPGs. You do not have tactical infinity, the ability to try anything, in a board game. You do in RPGs. So the rules of RPGs are inherently under far more pressure than the rules of a board game. Their boundaries and limits are constantly tested and stretched and broken. Shenanigans is seen as a pillar of play by some. Bad design, yes. But no design for an RPG can be complete if it's trying to cover all the weirdness players will inevitably get up to with specific rules for everything. At least no game with any real mechanical crunch will ever be "complete" in that regard. Fate games are complete because they have a few rules that cover everything. PbtA games are complete because they are thematically focused and only have rules to cover that focus. Things like D&D? Nope. When you can do anything you either need infinite rules (incredibly bad idea and impossible) or you need focused rules that cover what the game is actually about (if that's where you think D&D is, then D&D is only a monster fighting game), or you toss it all and just trust the players at the table and have a good time. [/QUOTE]
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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023
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