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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023
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<blockquote data-quote="Pedantic" data-source="post: 9103437" data-attributes="member: 6690965"><p>This is wildly overblown. Firstly, it misses an entire avenue of player expression in <em>using</em> the rules. To use a board game example, I won a game of 1817 primarily by wildly inflating a company's value on the basis of a few somewhat profitable train routes, got shorted by the other players, sold my own shares in the now suddenly failing company, and then used a different company to buy it out at the suddenly very low value, turning those mid-tier routes into very good routes and essentially pocketing the difference in lost value out of the holdings of my other company.</p><p></p><p>Those maneuvers were allowed to happen because of a web of interlocking, knowable rules and my navigation of them was entirely unlike that of other players around the table. I could have done something else entirely, and in fact another player tried to keep his own company afloat after a similar short, resulting in his bankruptcy. Those rules only took about 20 pages to write, much less the standard couple of 300-400 page books I'm happy to consume for a TTRPG.</p><p></p><p>Secondly, much of what gets called creative thinking deploys similar repeated tactics and moves, to the point we idiomatically refer to such things as "players swinging from chandeliers." You can just write swinging rules that apply to most objects, and let players understand why they might or might not want to swing on them. I've yet to see a unique enough case that I don't think a pretty robust system of object interactions and skills can't handle it, especially if you're able to constrict genre down to heroic fantasy (or grimdark fantasy, or whatever subvariant you want). </p><p></p><p>The infinity is much more theoretical than practical.</p><p></p><p>I obviously don't care what anyone does at their own table, except insomuch as it would be nice to have enough common ground to discuss what's happening more broadly than my own immediate set of players. The best formulation of what I'd like though is for players to have rules to play with, and reasons to want to play with them.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Pedantic, post: 9103437, member: 6690965"] This is wildly overblown. Firstly, it misses an entire avenue of player expression in [I]using[/I] the rules. To use a board game example, I won a game of 1817 primarily by wildly inflating a company's value on the basis of a few somewhat profitable train routes, got shorted by the other players, sold my own shares in the now suddenly failing company, and then used a different company to buy it out at the suddenly very low value, turning those mid-tier routes into very good routes and essentially pocketing the difference in lost value out of the holdings of my other company. Those maneuvers were allowed to happen because of a web of interlocking, knowable rules and my navigation of them was entirely unlike that of other players around the table. I could have done something else entirely, and in fact another player tried to keep his own company afloat after a similar short, resulting in his bankruptcy. Those rules only took about 20 pages to write, much less the standard couple of 300-400 page books I'm happy to consume for a TTRPG. Secondly, much of what gets called creative thinking deploys similar repeated tactics and moves, to the point we idiomatically refer to such things as "players swinging from chandeliers." You can just write swinging rules that apply to most objects, and let players understand why they might or might not want to swing on them. I've yet to see a unique enough case that I don't think a pretty robust system of object interactions and skills can't handle it, especially if you're able to constrict genre down to heroic fantasy (or grimdark fantasy, or whatever subvariant you want). The infinity is much more theoretical than practical. I obviously don't care what anyone does at their own table, except insomuch as it would be nice to have enough common ground to discuss what's happening more broadly than my own immediate set of players. The best formulation of what I'd like though is for players to have rules to play with, and reasons to want to play with them. [/QUOTE]
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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023
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