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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023
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<blockquote data-quote="Staffan" data-source="post: 9109923" data-attributes="member: 907"><p>Coming in a bit late here...</p><p></p><p>I think it was a revitalization compared to late-era 2e, but that doesn't mean it got back to the peaks of 1e or early 2e.</p><p></p><p></p><p>From the POV of the shareholders, that <strong>is</strong> making the company better. But that's the problem of treating companies solely as vehicles for generating profit for shareholders, rather than as a shared thing that has to work for many different <strong>stake</strong>holders.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I think you can more easily see how encounter powers descend from medium-term WOW cooldowns when you look at the intermediate stages in Tome of Battle (which had slightly different recharge mechanism for its three different classes) and the Binder class from the Tome of Magic (where many of the vestiges could grant an ability to be used once every 5 rounds). I can imagine 4e design discussions going "Most fights aren't going to last long enough for these recharge mechanics to be relevant, so why not just make them 1/fight?"</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>AD&D monsters were generally not constructed with any regard for their role in the game. In most cases, they were put together with a "this seems about right" attitude, and then this resulted in a particular XP value and DMs were expected to be able to figure out whether a particular monster was appropriate to use on their own.</p><p></p><p>3e added the CR mechanic, which was supposed to tell DMs what sort of monsters were appropriate for what levels and how many XP they were worth. But 3.0e monsters were often 2e monsters that just got converted straight over to 3e mechanics, with CR estimated after the fact, meaning that some had a CR that got artificially increased because of one or two particular abilities but the rest of the monster wouldn't come close to matching that CR. For example, the nymph is CR 6 because they cast spells as 7th level druids, but at the same time they have 10 hp and AC 11, meaning a stiff breeze would knock them over. When making 3.5e, they made some effort into both having the whole monster conform to the CR as well as culling some "useless" abilities (usually spell-like abilities). In 3.5e, the nymph got a boost to 27 hp and AC 17, while also changing the save-or-die from Unearthly Beauty into a stun.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I mean, that could just mean that the Hasbro bosses recognize that game/adventure design skill doesn't translate into management skill, and that they don't want to promote them to their level of incompetence.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Staffan, post: 9109923, member: 907"] Coming in a bit late here... I think it was a revitalization compared to late-era 2e, but that doesn't mean it got back to the peaks of 1e or early 2e. From the POV of the shareholders, that [B]is[/B] making the company better. But that's the problem of treating companies solely as vehicles for generating profit for shareholders, rather than as a shared thing that has to work for many different [B]stake[/B]holders. I think you can more easily see how encounter powers descend from medium-term WOW cooldowns when you look at the intermediate stages in Tome of Battle (which had slightly different recharge mechanism for its three different classes) and the Binder class from the Tome of Magic (where many of the vestiges could grant an ability to be used once every 5 rounds). I can imagine 4e design discussions going "Most fights aren't going to last long enough for these recharge mechanics to be relevant, so why not just make them 1/fight?" AD&D monsters were generally not constructed with any regard for their role in the game. In most cases, they were put together with a "this seems about right" attitude, and then this resulted in a particular XP value and DMs were expected to be able to figure out whether a particular monster was appropriate to use on their own. 3e added the CR mechanic, which was supposed to tell DMs what sort of monsters were appropriate for what levels and how many XP they were worth. But 3.0e monsters were often 2e monsters that just got converted straight over to 3e mechanics, with CR estimated after the fact, meaning that some had a CR that got artificially increased because of one or two particular abilities but the rest of the monster wouldn't come close to matching that CR. For example, the nymph is CR 6 because they cast spells as 7th level druids, but at the same time they have 10 hp and AC 11, meaning a stiff breeze would knock them over. When making 3.5e, they made some effort into both having the whole monster conform to the CR as well as culling some "useless" abilities (usually spell-like abilities). In 3.5e, the nymph got a boost to 27 hp and AC 17, while also changing the save-or-die from Unearthly Beauty into a stun. I mean, that could just mean that the Hasbro bosses recognize that game/adventure design skill doesn't translate into management skill, and that they don't want to promote them to their level of incompetence. [/QUOTE]
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Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023
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