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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9221541" data-attributes="member: 42582">I posted an example from 4e upthread - the Rogue 25th level Daily "Biting Assault":Melee or Ranged weapon Requirement You must be wielding a crossbow, a light blade, or a sling. Target: One creature Attack: Dexterity vs Fortitude Hit: 3[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target takes ongoing 10 damage and is weakened (save ends both) Miss: Half damage, and the target takes 10 ongoing damageIt's pretty clear what is going on with this attack: it involves pounding the living daylights out of the target, regardless of their armour. And if the attack is made, then the target is set back and suffers ongoing damage, whether that be bleeding or the reverberating effects of the pounding. On a successful, but not a failed, attack roll the pounding is so brutal that the foe is also weakened. What helps a target resist this pounding is their fortitude.There are many examples of this sort of thing in 4e, some of which do damage on a miss and some of which don't.And the defence that is targeted is not about bypassing armour, but about the nature of the attack. A pounding attack like this one, for instance, doesn't "bypass" armour but just goes straight through it! It's clear what is happening in the fiction, whether or not any particular person likes that fiction.</blockquote>