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Message: <blockquote data-quote="payn" data-source="post: 9227034" data-attributes="member: 90374">I know there is little sympathy for 3E/OSR fans because they had Pathfinder etc.., but at the time of 4E launch "suck it up because we are not worthy of having a game that suits our preferences. Sit down. Shut up. Be happy with what you are given" was used against them. I fully understand that 4E was on its back foot from the moment it launched, so folks had to fight hard to defend it. Though, a lot of those defenders were very arrogant and elitist about it. Many still are to this day. Devil is in the details on these general ideals. How it is accomplished is much more difficult. There can always be too much 4E in D&D and never enough at the same time for the fan base. Designers have to grapple with that chestnut a newly forged sacred cow thanks to the E wars. Funny thing is now, folks are saying 5E sucks, but just got "real lucky with its success for these reasons." This is the edition war now where validity and worth are measured only in success. Another new sacred cow? Some of that is covered above. If you let up on 4E for a second, you invite it back into the tent. I'm not saying that, I'm just saying. Though, I want to take a moment and discuss e war terminology trap that folks fall into.  The words "problem" and "solution" are very loaded. In this thread or one adjacent we had some one post, "you people wanted this problem solved, but then had the audacity to reject the solution". 4E fans and non-fans alike are not a monolith. Problems in D&D are often one of perspective. Not every problem is universal, and not every solution is the best/only answer. If you "fix" something you could be breaking something else. Folks often want their pet peeves addressed and don't care about the results for anyone else. Which is why I try to understand others perspectives and only speak for myself on these edition topics. I dont envy the designers at all. You have to gauge the desire for things to be changed and the impact on all of those decisions. You also have to present in a way that is not 4E at all, but also totally 4E. Dammed if you do dammed if you dont.</blockquote>

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