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Berserker is balanced with Zealot without exhaustion from Frenzy
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<blockquote data-quote="EerieEgg" data-source="post: 7819001" data-attributes="member: 7016181"><p>I agree that overall the Xanathar Zealot subclass is superior to Berserker, but the initial calculations for this seem off.</p><p></p><p>What some seem to not realize is that you can use Retaliate reliably during your own turn with Reckless Attack if you intentionally provoke an Opportunity Attack during your own turn.</p><p></p><p>This means that Retaliate is essentially a reliable 3rd full-blown attack, advantage and all -- since we resist physical damage and have tons of health, this is something I expect most players will do most of their turns. Unless your DM screws you over and starts just not having enemies take the op attack (something that can be in poor sportsmanship to do in my view -- I have to wonder how the enemy knows whether or not the effect is continuous, single use, only works if they hit you for an op attack (since that's how you'll try and trigger it first I expect), etc without more experimentation than just a single hit for example -- just because the DM knows how Retaliate works doesn't mean even intelligent enemies will know how it works without at least some experimentation), this should do more damage than Divine Fury -- especially if you have Great Weapon Master. EDIT: This was discussed more later in the thread and what really kills Retaliate is A) it comes far too late B) A lot of DMs just have enemies never attack the Barbarian C) Retaliate means no Opportunity Attacks (probably a small thing, but still meaningful enough to list I think). Therefore, Divine Fury is probably a better feature overall in my estimation.</p><p></p><p>Another comparison done between abilities in early comments I also somewhat disagree with -- I would consider Zealot's "Fanatical Focus" to be a bit better than Berserker's "Mindless Rage" because it can be used for any save and you can reset the ability mid-combat by starting a new rage (something some don't seem to notice). Being able to reset it by starting a new rage is huge at max level since you have unlimited rage uses though I do understand most won't get that far.</p><p></p><p>In terms of damage though, Berserker should ultimately come out ahead by a moderate amount -- not huge, but discernible.</p><p></p><p>For example, suppose you have two max level Barbs -- one Zealot, one Berserker with both having GWM and max Str.</p><p></p><p>Without Frenzy we get:</p><p>--> 2 attacks + Retaliate + occasionally GWM BA</p><p></p><p>Zealot gets:</p><p>--> 2 attacks + Divine Fury + occasional GWM BA</p><p></p><p>So, even here, Berserker should outdamage Zealot by a small, but discernible amount provided your DM isn't screwing you out of your Retaliate (see above how we can trigger it manually).</p><p></p><p>This gap does close though if Zealot uses both Polearm Master + GWM -- I've seen many uses those feats and take Lucky or Sentinel and the sustained DPS is high (2 attacks + Divine Fury + Bonus action attack + occasional reaction attack). Notably though, this does result in the Zealot having less stats elsewhere and probably not maxed out Con, though this is mitigated by Rage Beyond Death so still quite powerful.</p><p></p><p>With Frenzy, it is unfortunate that there is meaningful anti-synergy on the Bonus Action attack from GWM -- it means against lots of small enemies a good chunk of your Frenzy attacks will just be wasted since you'd get a GWM Bonus attack anyway, but in cases like that you wouldn't use frenzy if you had GWM so the case to look at is a few Big enemies or a boss where the only likely chance GWM has of triggering the BA attack is crits.</p><p></p><p>With 4 rolls of the d20 our crit chance is about 18.55% and with 6 (retaliate during our own turn) it rises to about 25% where basically 4/5 or 3/4 turns we'll be getting a benefit out of Frenzy in those scenarios.</p><p></p><p>This means that Berserker should outdamage Zealot by a moderate amount -- probably not a huge amount, but a discernible amount -- that is at least unless the Zealot gives up ASIs for Polearm Master. I haven't gone through the math for that yet.</p><p></p><p>Overall, I do agree that Zealot is the better subclass (you get its benefit constantly and it actually has a useful level 10 feature -- Intimidating Presence is useless trash in combat scenarios).</p><p></p><p>I also think an official "Revised Path of the Berserker" should be released considering how rarely Berserker is chosen and considering how often its placed into the D or F tier in the game (probably Revised Champion should happen too), but it unfortunately looks like that won't happen. Picking Berserker was more considerable before Xanathar's. Now, it's an even tougher sell.</p><p></p><p>Til then, there have been some community reworks and I put together this one with help and feedback from "Discord and Dragons" as well as the dndnext subreddit which is what my tables have been using (attachment below -- differences are: Removed "Delay" between activating "Frenzy" and getting to use its bonus <strong>|</strong> Added "Hearty" feature soften exhaustion penalty. <strong>|</strong> The rest is "Stock" 5e -- not power creeping too far and not heavily altering the primal path's existing features was the goal for the revision)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EerieEgg, post: 7819001, member: 7016181"] I agree that overall the Xanathar Zealot subclass is superior to Berserker, but the initial calculations for this seem off. What some seem to not realize is that you can use Retaliate reliably during your own turn with Reckless Attack if you intentionally provoke an Opportunity Attack during your own turn. This means that Retaliate is essentially a reliable 3rd full-blown attack, advantage and all -- since we resist physical damage and have tons of health, this is something I expect most players will do most of their turns. Unless your DM screws you over and starts just not having enemies take the op attack (something that can be in poor sportsmanship to do in my view -- I have to wonder how the enemy knows whether or not the effect is continuous, single use, only works if they hit you for an op attack (since that's how you'll try and trigger it first I expect), etc without more experimentation than just a single hit for example -- just because the DM knows how Retaliate works doesn't mean even intelligent enemies will know how it works without at least some experimentation), this should do more damage than Divine Fury -- especially if you have Great Weapon Master. EDIT: This was discussed more later in the thread and what really kills Retaliate is A) it comes far too late B) A lot of DMs just have enemies never attack the Barbarian C) Retaliate means no Opportunity Attacks (probably a small thing, but still meaningful enough to list I think). Therefore, Divine Fury is probably a better feature overall in my estimation. Another comparison done between abilities in early comments I also somewhat disagree with -- I would consider Zealot's "Fanatical Focus" to be a bit better than Berserker's "Mindless Rage" because it can be used for any save and you can reset the ability mid-combat by starting a new rage (something some don't seem to notice). Being able to reset it by starting a new rage is huge at max level since you have unlimited rage uses though I do understand most won't get that far. In terms of damage though, Berserker should ultimately come out ahead by a moderate amount -- not huge, but discernible. For example, suppose you have two max level Barbs -- one Zealot, one Berserker with both having GWM and max Str. Without Frenzy we get: --> 2 attacks + Retaliate + occasionally GWM BA Zealot gets: --> 2 attacks + Divine Fury + occasional GWM BA So, even here, Berserker should outdamage Zealot by a small, but discernible amount provided your DM isn't screwing you out of your Retaliate (see above how we can trigger it manually). This gap does close though if Zealot uses both Polearm Master + GWM -- I've seen many uses those feats and take Lucky or Sentinel and the sustained DPS is high (2 attacks + Divine Fury + Bonus action attack + occasional reaction attack). Notably though, this does result in the Zealot having less stats elsewhere and probably not maxed out Con, though this is mitigated by Rage Beyond Death so still quite powerful. With Frenzy, it is unfortunate that there is meaningful anti-synergy on the Bonus Action attack from GWM -- it means against lots of small enemies a good chunk of your Frenzy attacks will just be wasted since you'd get a GWM Bonus attack anyway, but in cases like that you wouldn't use frenzy if you had GWM so the case to look at is a few Big enemies or a boss where the only likely chance GWM has of triggering the BA attack is crits. With 4 rolls of the d20 our crit chance is about 18.55% and with 6 (retaliate during our own turn) it rises to about 25% where basically 4/5 or 3/4 turns we'll be getting a benefit out of Frenzy in those scenarios. This means that Berserker should outdamage Zealot by a moderate amount -- probably not a huge amount, but a discernible amount -- that is at least unless the Zealot gives up ASIs for Polearm Master. I haven't gone through the math for that yet. Overall, I do agree that Zealot is the better subclass (you get its benefit constantly and it actually has a useful level 10 feature -- Intimidating Presence is useless trash in combat scenarios). I also think an official "Revised Path of the Berserker" should be released considering how rarely Berserker is chosen and considering how often its placed into the D or F tier in the game (probably Revised Champion should happen too), but it unfortunately looks like that won't happen. Picking Berserker was more considerable before Xanathar's. Now, it's an even tougher sell. Til then, there have been some community reworks and I put together this one with help and feedback from "Discord and Dragons" as well as the dndnext subreddit which is what my tables have been using (attachment below -- differences are: Removed "Delay" between activating "Frenzy" and getting to use its bonus [B]|[/B] Added "Hearty" feature soften exhaustion penalty. [B]|[/B] The rest is "Stock" 5e -- not power creeping too far and not heavily altering the primal path's existing features was the goal for the revision) [/QUOTE]
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Berserker is balanced with Zealot without exhaustion from Frenzy
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