Level Up (A5E) Berserker too strong?

[lichmaster]

wouldn't it technically be (2d10+1d10+2d6+5)*2 on a crit without elemental wrath or (2d10+1d10+4d6+5)*2 on a crit with it since in a5e damage is doubled, not dice (and damage added on a crit is added before the damage is doubled)? and before you ask what that changes, it changes that average 65-68 (it's actually an average 65.5 by the way) to an average 71. the maximum damage also increases by 10. interestingly nothing actually changes if you assume the d10 from the orc is added after the damage is doubled, but again, it's been stated you add damage like that before the crit is doubled.

anyway, i mean, yeah, that sounds kinda gross. do you have a fighter or herald in that party? i'd be interested to see how they stack up to a similarly geared berserker.

That's an interesting observation, I misremembered it as doubling the dice instead of doubling the result.
This has some interesting consequences: the former(rolling more dice) squeezes the distribution of the results towards the average, while the second is quicker to run at the table but preserves the distribution of outcomes of the original roll.
Example: (1d6)x2 has an average of 7, but you still have 1/6th of the chances to roll any even value between 2 and 12. 2d6 also averages as 7, but you have a triangular distribution and you can also generate odd results. In the first case there's thus a 1/6th probability of dealing the minimum damage of 2, while in the second there's only 1/36 chance of doing so. The same of course applies to the max possible damage.
At my table I still prefer to double the dice for two reasons: it's more exciting and drastically reduces the chances of crits turning into duds.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

At my table I still prefer to double the dice for two reasons: it's more exciting and drastically reduces the chances of crits turning into duds.

i'm gonna be honest - i've seen dice doubling turn crits into duds more then i've seen damage doubling do so.

 

[WarDriveWorley]

i'm gonna be honest - i've seen dice doubling turn crits into duds more then i've seen damage doubling do so.

This literally happened in my game last friday. Rogue/Wizard (bladesinger) hits with his rapier for a crit. Rolls all 1's on every dice (including his sneak attack). It was literally the most disappointing crit I have ever seen.

 

[lichmaster]

i'm gonna be honest - i've seen dice doubling turn crits into duds more then i've seen damage doubling do so.

Of course it can happen, but it's statistically way less likely, and the more dice you throw the less that's going to happen

 

[Titus Divinitus]

As an example, in the game we just ran last night, this is how the fight ended, with my Berserker going toe to toe with the big boss:

My turn starts
- Bonus Action, use Devoted Assault Maneuver (advantage on all attacks against the big boss)
- Action, use Dangerous Strikes Maneuver (expand crit range to 17-20)
- Attack the big boss - HIT (not crit) for 27 dmg
- Attack the big boss - CRIT for 56 dmg
- Furious Critical - Terrifying Force, fear all enemies within 60' (boss only one that saved)
- Furious Critical - Relentless Attacks - CRIT for 54 dmg
- Furious Critical - HIT for 25 dmg
- Free attack from Devoted Assault, use Stringing Swings - CRIT for 47 dmg
- Furious Critical - Relentless Attacks - HIT for 28 dmg

Total of 237 in a round... boss goes down. The expanded crit range, combined with furious criticals (and you get SO many of them) is amazing. If you get advantage on your attacks it's almost impossible to miss and as you can see you crit very often. Especially when the crit range is 17-20.

 

[thuter]

That's pretty strong indeed. I just wonder how it stacks up to other classes. My cutthroat spear thrower rogue build at lvl 18 will use Quickdraw to attack with advantage when we roll initiative. Given I hit an enemy it will become a critical hit due to the lvl 17 cutthroat feature, which will deal 2d6 (weapon) + 3d6 (blackblade poison) + 9d6 (sneak attack) + 6 (PB from sniper) + 5 (dex mod) + 1 (magic weapon) = 14d6+12 = 61. Doubled on the crit to 122, just before combat starts, and that is without stronger poisons that may become available to me later (we're only lvl 5 atm), or stronger weapons. Then during my turn I get to attack as normal, and the Marshal in our party wields my rogue as well. It's not as disgusting as 237 dpr, but it is pretty powerful. We'll see how I stack up to our berserker in the late game...

 

[Titus Divinitus]

Oh, our rogue throws the damage, the fate of the boss was sealed because the rogue hit him the round before with a crit for 80+, combine that with the unreal round from the berserker and single boss fights get shorter. We got lucky though, the early rounds had us dodging some serious brain fry attacks. Gotta be lucky! Lets be clear, that's a nova round for the berserker, can't do that on a sustained basis just due to exertion point limitations... but most fights don't last that long.

 

[Micah Sweet]

i'm gonna be honest - i've seen dice doubling turn crits into duds more then i've seen damage doubling do so.

Yeah, my wife regularly gets a bad bounce on the second roll and ends up with something that is at best on the high end of regular damage.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

This literally happened in my game last friday. Rogue/Wizard (bladesinger) hits with his rapier for a crit. Rolls all 1's on every dice (including his sneak attack). It was literally the most disappointing crit I have ever seen.

i literally woke up, paid a bill, and then read this. this is how my day started. my soul actually hurts reading this.

As an example, in the game we just ran last night, this is how the fight ended, with my Berserker going toe to toe with the big boss:[...]

god damn. this reminds me of a paladin (yeah, this is o5e) from my last campaign (that's...actually also in my current one for very bizarre plot reasons) who could roll 50+ damage on a regular hit and over 130 damage on a crit (assuming about a 3rd level smite for each of course). she had a magic weapon that increased her smite damage by 1d8, great weapon master, and we were using a book that increased the greatsword's damage to 2d10 (or 2d12 for large or larger creatures) for some insane reason. she also crit more often then she had any right to considering her crit range was completely normal (i.e. only 20).

my point here is that's some gross damage.

 

[WarDriveWorley]

i literally woke up, paid a bill, and then read this. this is how my day started. my soul actually hurts reading this.

Yeah. 11 damage on a crit with 4d6 sneak attack.

I once got a crit while wielding a whip with no additional damage that totaled 6 damage and that was better cause at least I rolled a 3 on that d4 and that's better than all 1s.