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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 8767172" data-attributes="member: 18">No, I don't agree that I mean that or implied that.I think you're looking for a specific definition in what I'm saying, whereas I'm asking, what is the definition, given the arbitrary length limit? What is apples with apples? I think if you start including RPGs with no setting at all, particularly ones that hard-require significant familiarity with an IP like Star Trek or Star Wars, next to RPGs attempting original settings, you're not comparing apples with apples, unless your sole qualification for an "apple" is "is it green and round and of a certain size", in which case you're going to be munching on an unusually-coloured tennis ball sooner or later!I mean, I think we have three different things being listed by people here:1) Tools to build RPGs, that aren't really RPGs. Fate Condensed/Accelerated is one of these. You can absolutely have an RPG that uses Fate, but it's an engine not an RPG in itself.2) RPGs with no setting, that are essentially relying on providing that setting, whether it's from knowledge of a TV show, knowledge of RPG tropes, or just expecting you to come up with a homebrew setting or use an existing one.3) RPGs that do have a setting - maybe a fairly light/implied one, but do have one, and could function even if you weren't pre-familiar with it.I'm not saying any of these are "wrong" or "inappropriate" or whatever, I'm saying that they're apples, oranges and pears. That coming in at under 100 pages with one is not the same as doing it with another (assuming equal layout/typesetting etc.) - and that very much includes in terms of real-world utility to the GM! It's not just a theoretical or pedantic measure for once! The A5/A4 issue and layout/typesetting also have an impact of course.I will say 2 & 3 can be close to equal in real-world utility to the GM if the GM has the knowledge for 2. But it does limit the possibilities somewhat.Actually 368! Even worse!But because it's A5, it's pretty misleading. I agree with your view that it's too long and too self-indulgent, but I would say it's not by as much as implied. It's A5, and word-count per page is like 300-ish from what I can tell (higher than Dungeon World but not high). If it was A4, and was at 3.5E levels of text density, it'd be 105 pages, so pretty much matches your brief despite us both agreeing it's a bit self-indulgent!I do think there is a real issue with a lot of fast-running RPGs going beyond their brief and often adding in an entire major section or three that just doesn't need to be there in the core book, which bulks them out a lot.I guess if nothing else I'm saying we should probably be going more on word count than page count if genuinely looking for "short RPGs" (although this harder info to find), unless portability is the sole goal but then A4/A5 should presumably factor in. Also personally I'd note anything using exception-based design is going to be larger than things that don't (but simultaneously less of it will need to be known by any given player/DM).</blockquote>

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